To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.
* Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.
(1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.
(2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.
(3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.
*E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),
(1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.
(2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.
*"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "
I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.
* And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.
Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over
(1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.
(2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be
(3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.
* the experiences don't produce any effects
Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience
Research Summary
From Council on Spiritual Practices Website
"States of Univtive Consciousness"
Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:
(1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.
Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.
Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.
Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.
Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.
Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)
(2)Long-Term Effects
Wuthnow:
*Say their lives are more meaningful,
*think about meaning and purpose
*Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style
Noble:
*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
*Less authoritarian and dogmatic
*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
*intelligent, relaxed
*High ego strength,
*relationships, symbolization, values,
*integration, allocentrism,
*psychological maturity,
*self-acceptance, self-worth,
*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
*increased love and compassion
(3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
* Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.
(1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.
(2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.
(3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.
*E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),
(1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.
(2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.
*"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "
I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.
* And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.
Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over
(1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.
(2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be
(3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.
* the experiences don't produce any effects
Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience
Research Summary
From Council on Spiritual Practices Website
"States of Univtive Consciousness"
Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:
(1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.
Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.
Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.
Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.
Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.
Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)
(2)Long-Term Effects
Wuthnow:
*Say their lives are more meaningful,
*think about meaning and purpose
*Know what purpose of life is
Meditate more
*Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
*Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
*Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
*Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style
Noble:
*Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
*Less authoritarian and dogmatic
*More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
*intelligent, relaxed
*High ego strength,
*relationships, symbolization, values,
*integration, allocentrism,
*psychological maturity,
*self-acceptance, self-worth,
*autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
*increased love and compassion
(3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
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