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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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God Argument: God Corrolate (or co-determionate)

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  • To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

    * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

    (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

    (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

    (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


    *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

    (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

    (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

    *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

    I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


    * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

    Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

    (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

    (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

    (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


    * the experiences don't produce any effects

    Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

    Research Summary

    From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

    "States of Univtive Consciousness"

    Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

    (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

    Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

    Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

    Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

    Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

    Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

    (2)Long-Term Effects

    Wuthnow:

    *Say their lives are more meaningful,
    *think about meaning and purpose
    *Know what purpose of life is
    Meditate more
    *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
    *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
    *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
    *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

    Noble:

    *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
    *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
    *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
    *intelligent, relaxed
    *High ego strength,
    *relationships, symbolization, values,
    *integration, allocentrism,
    *psychological maturity,
    *self-acceptance, self-worth,
    *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
    *increased love and compassion

    (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
    Metacrock's Blog


    The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

    The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

    Comment


    • Originally posted by metacrock View Post
      except that I've given a hunger number of reasons and proven them with facts and studies. so any probability you had on your side is now gone. You can't prove your argument merely by asserting the position you are truing to prove. Besides the tie breakers increase the probability of God way over anything you can match.
      Nonsense!

      Your argument, buried in the midst of your endless waffle, reduces to the standard god-of-the-gaps argument. You have presented NO facts that “prove” god-did-it or indeed that gods even exist. Despite your alleged “probability of God” there is NO substantive evidence for the existence of a deity. OTOH there’s considerable empirically verified evidence for the existence of the natural universe. God is NOT the default position, the natural universe is.

      you lose
      What, are you five?
      “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

      Comment


      • To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

        * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

        (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

        (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

        (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


        *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

        (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

        (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

        *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

        I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


        * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

        Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

        (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

        (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

        (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


        * the experiences don't produce any effects

        Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

        Research Summary

        From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

        "States of Univtive Consciousness"

        Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

        (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

        Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

        Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

        Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

        Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

        Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

        (2)Long-Term Effects

        Wuthnow:

        *Say their lives are more meaningful,
        *think about meaning and purpose
        *Know what purpose of life is
        Meditate more
        *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
        *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
        *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
        *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

        Noble:

        *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
        *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
        *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
        *intelligent, relaxed
        *High ego strength,
        *relationships, symbolization, values,
        *integration, allocentrism,
        *psychological maturity,
        *self-acceptance, self-worth,
        *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
        *increased love and compassion

        (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
        Metacrock's Blog


        The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

        The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by metacrock View Post
          To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

          * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

          (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

          (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

          (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


          *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

          (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

          (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

          *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

          I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


          * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

          Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

          (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

          (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

          (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


          * the experiences don't produce any effects

          Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

          Research Summary

          From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

          "States of Univtive Consciousness"

          Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

          (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

          Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

          Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

          Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

          Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

          Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

          (2)Long-Term Effects

          Wuthnow:

          *Say their lives are more meaningful,
          *think about meaning and purpose
          *Know what purpose of life is
          Meditate more
          *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
          *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
          *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
          *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

          Noble:

          *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
          *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
          *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
          *intelligent, relaxed
          *High ego strength,
          *relationships, symbolization, values,
          *integration, allocentrism,
          *psychological maturity,
          *self-acceptance, self-worth,
          *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
          *increased love and compassion

          (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
          Still playing to the Gallery are we? How you love your Logical Fallacies.

          Your argument, buried in the midst of your endless waffle, reduces to the standard god-of-the-gaps argument and begging the question, e.g. Metarock: “So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.” Really, why not? This is begging the question. And this is the regrettable standard of your Proof by Verbosity argument throughout your long and tortuous waffle.

          Despite your claimed “probability of God” there is NO substantive evidence for the existence of a deity. OTOH there’s considerable empirically verified evidence for the existence of the natural universe. God is NOT the default position, the natural universe is
          “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

          Comment


          • To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

            * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

            (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

            (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

            (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


            *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

            (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

            (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

            *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

            I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


            * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

            Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

            (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

            (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

            (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


            * the experiences don't produce any effects

            Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

            Research Summary

            From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

            "States of Univtive Consciousness"

            Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

            (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

            Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

            Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

            Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

            Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

            Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

            (2)Long-Term Effects

            Wuthnow:

            *Say their lives are more meaningful,
            *think about meaning and purpose
            *Know what purpose of life is
            Meditate more
            *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
            *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
            *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
            *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

            Noble:

            *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
            *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
            *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
            *intelligent, relaxed
            *High ego strength,
            *relationships, symbolization, values,
            *integration, allocentrism,
            *psychological maturity,
            *self-acceptance, self-worth,
            *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
            *increased love and compassion

            (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".



            Metacrock's Blog
            Metacrock's Blog


            The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

            The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by metacrock View Post
              To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

              * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

              (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

              (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

              (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


              *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

              (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

              (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

              *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

              I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


              * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

              Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

              (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

              (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

              (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


              * the experiences don't produce any effects

              Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

              Research Summary

              From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

              "States of Univtive Consciousness"

              Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

              (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

              Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

              Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

              Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

              Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

              Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

              (2)Long-Term Effects

              Wuthnow:

              *Say their lives are more meaningful,
              *think about meaning and purpose
              *Know what purpose of life is
              Meditate more
              *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
              *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
              *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
              *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

              Noble:

              *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
              *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
              *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
              *intelligent, relaxed
              *High ego strength,
              *relationships, symbolization, values,
              *integration, allocentrism,
              *psychological maturity,
              *self-acceptance, self-worth,
              *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
              *increased love and compassion

              (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".



              Metacrock's Blog
              Your argument, buried in the midst of your endless waffle, reduces to the standard god-of-the-gaps argument and begging the question.. E.g.you said: “So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.” Really, why not? This is begging the question. And this is the regrettable standard of your Proof by Verbosity argument throughout your long and tortuous waffle.

              Despite your claimed “probability of God” there is NO substantive evidence for the existence of a deity. OTOH there’s considerable empirically verified evidence for the existence of the natural universe. God is NOT the default position, the natural universe is
              “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

              Comment


              • To the reader: I have disproved Tassman's arguments over and over again he's repeating the same ideas since page one or two and I've answered them every time; he then repeats them as though I did not say anything. He never answers my answers he just pretends I didn't give any. I m not going to do 60 page like I see on some of these threads I have spent enough time in my life arguing with people who don't want answers. I'm going to answer the four or so major arguments he makes and you can check off the one's he's used in each post.

                * Namely, All mental experiences whether good or bad are the effect of the physiology and activity of the material brain.

                (1) the fact is all ideas have to be screened though our mental processes but atheists don't posit notions like "there is real world everything is an illusion including science.' they could, there is no more reason to assume the world science tells us about is any more real than is religious experience because all scientific knowledge is processed though brain chemistry.

                (2) God apparently created us to be wired in such a way that we interact with reality though brain chemistry So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.

                (3) the researchers who claim to produce religious experience don't define what that is and they don't use controls to make sure they are getting it, so there is no proof that one can stimulate the brain electronically to produce religious experiences.


                *E.g. It's unlikely that children in the back-blocks of Pakistan will have a mystical experience of the Blessed Virgin Mary (ŕ la Lourdes and Fatima),

                (1) The studies show that all the religious experiences of this kind called "mystical": the world over are the same. when they take out the names such as Jesus or Vishnu the experiences themselves are the same.

                (2) Mystical experience is beyond word thought or images these experiences such as Lourdes or Fatima are not mystical per se, that's not what we are talking about.

                *"because their social and religious acculturation is different. Their mystical experiences will feature Muslim-based content. "

                I've pointed our many time they don't the studies show even though that sounds logical it is not true. they use their own traditions to experience the experiences but the experiences themselves are the same in all traditions.


                * And that's all it does do, namely classify "mystical experiences", which NOBODY is denying exist. But what it DOESN'T DO is provide evidence of non-natural agency involvement...and THIS is ALL this interminable discussion is about.

                Yes it does I've proved this with the studies many times. go read back though the thread I've shown it over and over

                (1) the universality argument is reason to assume it's God. one would expect religious traditions to be culturally bound. that the experiences are the same implies an objective external source they are all experiencing.

                (2) The effects are real, the content of the experience is about God, the meaning of life, ultimate reality, that in itself is a good enough reason. No reason not to assume the cause is not what it seems to be

                (3) these experiences are seen as religious by people who have them and they do what religion purports to do, they transform our lives and resolve the human problematic. they prove the veracity of religion and thus belief in God.


                * the experiences don't produce any effects

                Empirical Studies show Long-Term Positive Effects of Mystical Experience

                Research Summary

                From Council on Spiritual Practices Website

                "States of Univtive Consciousness"

                Also called Transcendent Experiences, Ego-Transcendence, Intense Religious Experience, Peak Experiences, Mystical Experiences, Cosmic Consciousness. Sources:

                (1) Studies Wuthnow, Robert (1978). "Peak Experiences: Some Empirical Tests." Journal of Humanistic Psychology, 18 (3), 59-75.

                Noble, Kathleen D. (1987). ``Psychological Health and the Experience of Transcendence.'' The Counseling Psychologist, 15 (4), 601-614.

                Lukoff, David & Francis G. Lu (1988). ``Transpersonal psychology research review: Topic: Mystical experiences.'' Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 20 (2), 161-184.

                Roger Walsh (1980). The consciousness disciplines and the behavioral sciences: Questions of comparison and assessment. American Journal of Psychiatry, 137(6), 663-673.

                Lester Grinspoon and James Bakalar (1983). ``Psychedelic Drugs in Psychiatry'' in Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, New York: Basic Books.

                Furthermore, Greeley found no evidence to support the orthodox belief that frequent mystic experiences or psychic experiences stem from deprivation or psychopathology. His ''mystics'' were generally better educated, more successful economically, and less racist, and they were rated substantially happier on measures of psychological well-being. (Charles T. Tart, Psi: Scientific Studies of the Psychic Realm, p. 19.)

                (2)Long-Term Effects

                Wuthnow:

                *Say their lives are more meaningful,
                *think about meaning and purpose
                *Know what purpose of life is
                Meditate more
                *Score higher on self-rated personal talents and capabilities
                *Less likely to value material possessions, high pay, job security, fame, and having lots of friends
                *Greater value on work for social change, solving social problems, helping needy
                *Reflective, inner-directed, self-aware, self-confident life style

                Noble:

                *Experience more productive of psychological health than illness
                *Less authoritarian and dogmatic
                *More assertive, imaginative, self-sufficient
                *intelligent, relaxed
                *High ego strength,
                *relationships, symbolization, values,
                *integration, allocentrism,
                *psychological maturity,
                *self-acceptance, self-worth,
                *autonomy, authenticity, need for solitude,
                *increased love and compassion

                (3) Trend toward positive view among psychologists. Spiriutal Emergency MYSTICAL OR UNITIVE EXPERIENCE "Offsetting the clinical literature that views mystical experiences as pathological, many theorists (Bucke, 1961; Hood, 1974, 1976; James, 1961; Jung, 1973; Laski, 1968; Maslow, 1962, 1971; Stace, 1960; Underhill, 1955) have viewed mystical experiences as a sign of health and a powerful agent of transformation." (4) Most clinicians and clinical studies see postive. (Ibid) "Results of a recent survey (Allman, et al,. 1992) suggest that most clinicians do not view mystical experiences as pathological. Also, studies by several researchers have found that people reporting mystical experiences scored lower on psychopathology scales and higher on measures of psychological well-being than controls (Caird, 1987; Hood, 1976, 1977, 1979; Spanos and Moretti, 1988)".
                Metacrock's Blog


                The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

                The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                  Your argument, buried in the midst of your endless waffle, reduces to the standard god-of-the-gaps argument and begging the question.. E.g.you said: “So no reason to assume that an experience of God would not also involve brain chemistry no reason to assume it is only the result of brain chemistry.” Really, why not? This is begging the question. And this is the regrettable standard of your Proof by Verbosity argument throughout your long and tortuous waffle.

                  Despite your claimed “probability of God” there is NO substantive evidence for the existence of a deity. OTOH there’s considerable empirically verified evidence for the existence of the natural universe. God is NOT the default position, the natural universe is
                  reader in this post we see all of his usual tricks. he calls my writing names puts it down but does not deal with the issues. he asserts things I've disproved with empirical evidence a number of times yet pretends I have no such evidence, look through the list you see I have answered everything he has to say.
                  Metacrock's Blog


                  The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

                  The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

                  Comment


                  • I started another thread just focusing on the universal argument he claims I never made., hold his feet to the fire and make him answer it. that thread is here: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...798#post309798
                    Metacrock's Blog


                    The Religious a priori: apologetics for 21st ccentury

                    The Trace of God by Joseph Hinman

                    Comment

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