Non-theism and spirituality

[Galen]

I am a long time lurker and enjoy reading the discussion that go on here. I have made an observation (not necessarily here, but in general) and wanted to know what the Twebbers thought. The question/statement is directed at non-theist, however theist, deist, agnostic, etc can all answer if they want.

I have noticed that a lot if not the majority of non-theist that I have had interactions with consider themselves spiritual, not really true materialist. I googled a definition of spiritual and this is what I found:

• religious: concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "a
member of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual"; "spiritual leaders"; "spiritual
songs"
• concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul; "a spiritual approach to life"; "spiritual
fulfillment"; "spiritual values"; "unearthly love"
• lacking material body or form or substance; "spiritual beings"; "the vital transcendental soul
belonging to the spiritual realm"-Lewis Mumford
• a kind of religious song originated by Blacks in the southern United States
• apparitional: resembling or characteristic of a phantom; "a ghostly face at the window"; "a
phantasmal presence in the room"; "spectral emanations"; "spiritual tappings at a seance"

To the non-theist on Tweb, do you consider yourself spiritual and if so how/why?

[Zeluvia]

I consider it an emotion. I describe it as a feeling of overwhelming good, and a connectedness to all living things, and out of it grows compassion.

I have had an assortment of "spiritual" experiences in my life. They changed the way I veiw the world.

But I do not believe in theistic concepts of god, and I don't know about the truth of any of the other god concepts.

Basically, I have found nothing in religion that adequately explains those experiences, or makes sense while doing so. All I find in religion is attempts to recreate the experience, and messed up, illogical, and primitive explanations.

[nickcopernicus]

I am a long time lurker and enjoy reading the discussion that go on here. I have made an observation (not necessarily here, but in general) and wanted to know what the Twebbers thought. The question/statement is directed at non-theist, however theist, deist, agnostic, etc can all answer if they want.

I have noticed that a lot if not the majority of non-theist that I have had interactions with consider themselves spiritual, not really true materialist. I googled a definition of spiritual and this is what I found:

• religious: concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "a
member of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual"; "spiritual leaders"; "spiritual
songs"
• concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul; "a spiritual approach to life"; "spiritual
fulfillment"; "spiritual values"; "unearthly love"
• lacking material body or form or substance; "spiritual beings"; "the vital transcendental soul
belonging to the spiritual realm"-Lewis Mumford
• a kind of religious song originated by Blacks in the southern United States
• apparitional: resembling or characteristic of a phantom; "a ghostly face at the window"; "a
phantasmal presence in the room"; "spectral emanations"; "spiritual tappings at a seance"

To the non-theist on Tweb, do you consider yourself spiritual and if so how/why?

Nick:

I like Magic the Gathering, AD&D, and reading Fantasy and Si-Fi books...
That's about as "spiritual" as I get.....


.....well that and when I'm tripping or rolling


Cheers,

Nick

[Galen]

What brought about my question was watching the interview between Dawkins and McGrath. At the very end of it, Dawkins said he considered himself a spiritual atheist. That just completely caught me off guard. I have heard other atheist say the same thing, but Dawkins of all people. I really wish McGrath could of questioned him on what he meant by spiritual.

[Galen]

Zeluvia

Do you believe in a non-material spirit or soul?

[Carpedm9587]

I am a long time lurker and enjoy reading the discussion that go on here. I have made an observation (not necessarily here, but in general) and wanted to know what the Twebbers thought. The question/statement is directed at non-theist, however theist, deist, agnostic, etc can all answer if they want.

I have noticed that a lot if not the majority of non-theist that I have had interactions with consider themselves spiritual, not really true materialist. I googled a definition of spiritual and this is what I found:

• religious: concerned with sacred matters or religion or the church; "religious texts"; "a
member of a religious order"; "lords temporal and spiritual"; "spiritual leaders"; "spiritual
songs"
• concerned with or affecting the spirit or soul; "a spiritual approach to life"; "spiritual
fulfillment"; "spiritual values"; "unearthly love"
• lacking material body or form or substance; "spiritual beings"; "the vital transcendental soul
belonging to the spiritual realm"-Lewis Mumford
• a kind of religious song originated by Blacks in the southern United States
• apparitional: resembling or characteristic of a phantom; "a ghostly face at the window"; "a
phantasmal presence in the room"; "spectral emanations"; "spiritual tappings at a seance"

To the non-theist on Tweb, do you consider yourself spiritual and if so how/why?

Yes - I consider myself a "spiritual" person.

Language is a tricky thing. A lot of it is rooted in cultural norms and history. The list of definitions above does not surprise me - but I think it is largely influence by the predominance of theists in our world. So it does not reflect the much smaller percentage of us who are atheist.

It is clear that there is an immaterial dimension to life. There is brain - but there is also mind. I believe the two are inseparable, but the former is a reference to a physical reality and the latter a reference to a nonmaterial attribute of that physical reality. So in the sense that I have "mind" I consider myself "spiritual."

But I also mean it in a more loose sense. To me, a "spiritual" person is one who attends not only to their physical health and needs but to their nonmaterial health and needs. They expand their minds. They reduce stress. The ponder life and its vagaries. They are introspective and curious.

If, however, you limit the definition of "spiritual" to the items listed above - then I would have to say no, I'm not spiritual. That means I need a new word for what I actually AM.

Michel

[Zeluvia]

Zeluvia

Do you believe in a non-material spirit or soul?

Good question. I used to believe in it, but now I am agnostic. I have a serious problem with it now.

The problem centers around the nature of consciousness. I used to think that consciousness could exist without a physical mind, so that a non-material spirit or soul could be conscious or aware. That opinion has changed. I no longer think that personal identity, and therefore consciousness, can exist past the death of the physical mind.

I do however have this rather out there theory of life energy, which exists on a continuum like any other energy, and is recycled constantly. But it's just a thought, not something I would say I believed.

[Zeluvia]

Yes - I consider myself a "spiritual" person.

Language is a tricky thing. A lot of it is rooted in cultural norms and history. The list of definitions above does not surprise me - but I think it is largely influence by the predominance of theists in our world. So it does not reflect the much smaller percentage of us who are atheist.

It is clear that there is an immaterial dimension to life. There is brain - but there is also mind. I believe the two are inseparable, but the former is a reference to a physical reality and the latter a reference to a nonmaterial attribute of that physical reality. So in the sense that I have "mind" I consider myself "spiritual."

But I also mean it in a more loose sense. To me, a "spiritual" person is one who attends not only to their physical health and needs but to their nonmaterial health and needs. They expand their minds. They reduce stress. The ponder life and its vagaries. They are introspective and curious.

If, however, you limit the definition of "spiritual" to the items listed above - then I would have to say no, I'm not spiritual. That means I need a new word for what I actually AM.

Michel

You are using spiritual then to denote another level (higher) of awareness of self. I would have to agree with this also. Spiritual could mean a higher awareness of self and others and their interconnectedness.

[Zeluvia]

I thought of another way to express it...

from Matchbox 20

"laughing out loud just at the thought of being alive"

[Galen]

Zeluvia

Is this higher level brought about by materially causes? Or, does the mind (assuming it exist) transend material causes and cause this higher awareness?

I realize neither of us are neuroscientist (I assume your not) but just curious what you think and how you arrive at your answer.

[Zeluvia]

Well, I worked with coma patients for a bit. There is a scale doctors use to judge awareness.

And you can see children develop more and more awareness as they grow.

There are also some higher parts of our brains that don't complete development till our mid-20s.

So, I would say part of it is certainly physical, and related directly to brain development.

The other part is life experience and learning.

I think the "mind" (being defined as your interpretation of the data present in your brain) is capable of grasping more and more complex ideas, and relationships, and the level of complexity that you can appreciate corresponds to your level of awareness.

These are very good questions, and are making me think = )

[Carpedm9587]

Zeluvia

Is this higher level brought about by materially causes? Or, does the mind (assuming it exist) transend material causes and cause this higher awareness?

I realize neither of us are neuroscientist (I assume your not) but just curious what you think and how you arrive at your answer.

There is very little doubt in my mind that mind if a function and characteristic of brain. This nonmaterial is an emergent property of the physical. It transcends the physical - but is linked to it. Destroy the physical and it will be destroyed. Affect the physical and it will be affected.

Michel

[Zeluvia]

I have been doing some more thinking. I also think "higher awareness" has to do with achieving complex perspectives.

This is a famous photograph. For many people, it changed our perspective, and therefore our awareness.

http://www.skydiveelsinore.com/space...ster_large.jpg

[Galen]

I have kind of veered off course thinking about spirituality and talking about the brain and mind, however I believe that a correlation can be made between spirituality and the mind. I remember reading about a man in France whose brain was just a thin sheet of tissue and his skull was mostly filled with fluid, yet the man functioned normally and had a family and government job. The physicians stated that other parts of the brain compensated for the missing tissue.

I am kind of disappointed that other non-theist did not answer my question regarding spirituality. I also noticed this correlation when I was in college how alot of professors who seemed to be hostile to us religious folk, seemed to be very pro spirituality.

I appreciate your input, Carpe and Zeluvia

[Zeluvia]

I have kind of veered off course thinking about spirituality and talking about the brain and mind, however I believe that a correlation can be made between spirituality and the mind. I remember reading about a man in France whose brain was just a thin sheet of tissue and his skull was mostly filled with fluid, yet the man functioned normally and had a family and government job. The physicians stated that other parts of the brain compensated for the missing tissue.

I am kind of disappointed that other non-theist did not answer my question regarding spirituality. I also noticed this correlation when I was in college how alot of professors who seemed to be hostile to us religious folk, seemed to be very pro spirituality.

I appreciate your input, Carpe and Zeluvia

Have you read "Why Christianity Must Change or Die" by Spong?

I think he does a good job in that book of seperating the baggage of religion from the spirituality.

I think spirituality, defined in it's emotional and awareness context as we have touched on in this thread is an important part of being human. I think it is related to our physical brain and the emergent mind.

Thanks for the questions = )