OUR FEATURED MEMBER ARTICLE: The Reflection, by ApologiaNick

[Trout]

The Reflection

A Christian is to know God and a Christian is to know himself. We must know who this God is that we are approaching and we must know who we are that is approaching him. However, when we think about these concepts, we find it difficult to do either one of them.

Why is it hard to know God? It is because God is so far from us in who he is. It is like comparing a flea to an elephant. The transcendence of God makes it difficult for us to picture him. There is a reason some have said that the best we can say about God is what he is not.

Why is it hard for us to know ourselves? We cannot know ourselves for the opposite reason. We are too close to ourselves. We all color our views of ourselves in wrong ways be they good or bad. This is one reason we need friends who see us from the outside and are willing to tell us the truth about ourselves.

When we see both of these together, we realize that we have a problem. How is it that we can come to know this God if he is so far beyond us? How can we come to know ourselves if we are so close to ourselves? Is there any bridge to build over this chasm?

The Christian does have an answer. The only way we can know God is if he reveals himself in an intimate way close to us. The only way we can know ourselves is if we see our nature from a distance. The answer the Christian presents is in the person of Christ.

If you have any idea of deity that contradicts what you see in Christ, the Christian says you are wrong. If you have any idea of humanity that contradicts what you see in Christ, the Christian again says you are wrong. Christ is our revelation of who God is of course, but he is also the revelation of who we are to be.

Thus, we are to be more like Christ if we are to be fully human. The problem is that so many of us act inhuman. It has been said that to error is human and to forgive divine. Forgiveness is divine, no doubt, but if Christianity is true, sin is not human. It is inhuman. The one perfect human who ever lived did not sin.

Yet there is a mystery here. How can Christ be fully God and fully human? Do the two natures not contradict? The answer is not at all. In fact, we see a reason why this is so right in Genesis 1. We read in that passage that man is created in the image of God.

Do we have any reason to believe this refers to physicality? After all, orthodox Christianity denies that God is physical in his essential nature. Could this not indicate that we possess the communicable attributes of God though to a far lesser degree? Could it be that we are creative, rational, logical, powerful, intelligent, relational, etc.?

Could it actually be that when we are fully human, we reflect God perfectly? It does not mean we are God any more than the image I see in the mirror is me. It means that when God looks at us at that point, that he sees a perfect reflection of himself.

This is the joy of the Christian message. God does love us, but he loves us too much to leave us less than what we should be. The Christian gospel does not destroy our humanity. It gives it to us. We do not cease to be persons in Christ. We become complete persons in Christ.

So much of what we say is “human nature” is in fact just the opposite. It is sinful nature. Human nature is good. How could it not be? God created it. It is the falling away from that, the sinful nature, that causes us grief. The tragedy is that we are not living the human lives God intended us.

The Christian is to live a life where he is to know God as God is, but the Christian is to come as the Christian is meant to be. The Christian is meant to be fully himself or herself. They are not meant to be something else. We are not to be absorbed into God’s nature where we lose our identity. We are to remain ourselves and at the same time, fully reflect him.

Soren Kierkegaard once said, “And now Lord, with your help, I will become myself.” That is one of our goals. We are to find who we are meant to be. We are meant to walk as Jesus did and we cannot do that when we walk around as sinful human beings.

I do not think we will likely complete the journey on this side of eternity, but we are to aim for that. We are to live more in the ways we were designed to live. Sanctification could be described as the way God comes and cuts away from us everything that does not reflect him. In the end, we see that we are in the image of God, and in Scripture, Jesus is the image of God.

We can be sure this will happen as well. Romans 8:29 says that if we are foreknown, we will be conformed to the likeness of his Son. If you trust Scripture, then as unbelievable as it might seem, you can rest assured at this. You will walk as Jesus did one day. You will be conformed to his likeness one day. It is the Borg who say “You will be assimilated.” It is the Father who says “You will be conformed.”

There is a story about a group of ladies who were studying Malachi 3 once about how the silversmith refines silver. One lady went to see such a silversmith and watched him refine it. As she was leaving, the silversmith told her she might be interested in knowing how someone can tell the silver is pure. When she asked how, she was answered, “When I see my own reflection in it.”

Dear Christian. This is your calling. You are to walk as Jesus did, and rest assured, he will help you on the way. There will come a day when you will walk the streets of Heaven. You will fully reflect him and you will then truly be you. Christianity does not call you to live a half-life. It calls you to live a full and true life.

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[Trout]

[Muhd]

Amen. Well said.

So often I find myself thinking that sinful living is the default state of humanity, that to become good I must become something strange and different, and give up that which is normal. Yet it is really the other way around. We as Christians must strive to depart with the unnatural corruption that has tainted our true natures as human beings.

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,


I would very much disagree to this OP especially saying that Jesus is fully God and Fully man, and that Jesus is the image of God. In which was is Jesus the image of God??? Did Jesus state that the son can do nothing of himself??? I think he did. Where did God in the OT or the Father ever make such a statement??? Did Jesus not say that he does nothing of his own but only what the Father commands him??? I think he did, so based on these 2 examples of many, I would deny that Jesus is the image of God, because Jesus shows that he is inferior to God.

Now on to Jesus being Fully God and Fully man. To say that Jesus is fully God and Fully man is to also say that Jesus is neither God nor Man. If you are God then you prove that you are not a man, and if you are a man then you prove that you are not God. God is only God and man is only Man, so for this person to be both God and Man, is completely different from being Only God, which God is, and only Man, which man is. Jesus was not like us, because I don't recall being God as well do you my friend??? And God is not like Jesus, because he is the creator and he doesn't have the label of also being called the created either does he??? That is why I say Jesus is neither.

Now take for example Jesus stating that ONLY the father knows when the hour is. If Jesus is God he must also know when the hour is, but since he did not, it proves that he is not God, and if he did know when the hour is, then he would have sinned by telling the people that only the father knows, but in reality he knows too. Now, if you want to get even more technical, I would say that the bible everytime it says "Jesus" is faulty. Why??? The more appropriate statement would have been Jesus the son of man. For the person "Jesus" in the bible, is the God-Man, so everytime "Jesus" is being called by his followers, it is only Jesus the Man that is being referred to and not Jesus the God-Man, for if it was the God-man, you would have difficulty proving that this person who is in a human body can be present everywhere. I hope you are understanding this. Jesus the man on earth, was only half of "Jesus" who is the God-man. So the Jesus that is referred to on earth, is only a one natured being that is man like us, but really Jesus is a 2 natured being according to Christianity.

Now I see that you stated that Christians should walk like Jesus did. Do you personally even attempt to do that??? For what did Jesus do that according to Christianity that no man did??? He kept the law fully without breaking one law. Now what I would like to know, is why Christians do not even ATTEMPT and TRY to keep the law??? yes it maybe impossible, but didn't God state this:

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

Now here God himself is stating that he shows mercy to those who love him and keep his commandments. I think if you truly did love God then you would keep his commandments, and if you make a mistake, God states that he will show mercy to you. Even more important, God states that the covenant of love is with those who keep his commandments:

Deuteronomy 7:9-12

9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But
those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.

11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

So God is saying that his covenant of love spans 1000 Generations or about 40,000 years, and since this was given in the time of moses, this covenant should still be in effect today, and this covenant of love from God involves works, specifically the OT. Now if Jesus kept this law, and God himself states that he loves you if you keep this law, why aren't Christians inclined to keep this law and follow it???

Hope to hear your response friend, if I don't respond or I am late, please excuse me. Take care.

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,


I would very much disagree to this OP especially saying that Jesus is fully God and Fully man, and that Jesus is the image of God. In which was is Jesus the image of God??? Did Jesus state that the son can do nothing of himself??? I think he did. Where did God in the OT or the Father ever make such a statement??? Did Jesus not say that he does nothing of his own but only what the Father commands him??? I think he did, so based on these 2 examples of many, I would deny that Jesus is the image of God, because Jesus shows that he is inferior to God.

This is not a Trinity thread, but I'll say Trinitarians affirm both of those statements. How could Jesus be the servant otherwise? What would you have him say?

#1) I can do anything and the Father is unnecessary.

#2) I don't do what the Father commands but whatever I want.

Now on to Jesus being Fully God and Fully man. To say that Jesus is fully God and Fully man is to also say that Jesus is neither God nor Man. If you are God then you prove that you are not a man, and if you are a man then you prove that you are not God. God is only God and man is only Man, so for this person to be both God and Man, is completely different from being Only God, which God is, and only Man, which man is. Jesus was not like us, because I don't recall being God as well do you my friend??? And God is not like Jesus, because he is the creator and he doesn't have the label of also being called the created either does he??? That is why I say Jesus is neither.

Jesus is not a man? Wow. This must be something new in Islamic theology. No. There's no contradiction as I said in my article. Show me the contradiction you claim, though not here. This is not a Trinity thread.

Now take for example Jesus stating that ONLY the father knows when the hour is. If Jesus is God he must also know when the hour is, but since he did not, it proves that he is not God, and if he did know when the hour is, then he would have sinned by telling the people that only the father knows, but in reality he knows too. Now, if you want to get even more technical, I would say that the bible everytime it says "Jesus" is faulty. Why??? The more appropriate statement would have been Jesus the son of man. For the person "Jesus" in the bible, is the God-Man, so everytime "Jesus" is being called by his followers, it is only Jesus the Man that is being referred to and not Jesus the God-Man, for if it was the God-man, you would have difficulty proving that this person who is in a human body can be present everywhere. I hope you are understanding this. Jesus the man on earth, was only half of "Jesus" who is the God-man. So the Jesus that is referred to on earth, is only a one natured being that is man like us, but really Jesus is a 2 natured being according to Christianity.

I'm understanding you don't know what you're talking about with regards to the Trinity. Philippians 2 anyone?

Now I see that you stated that Christians should walk like Jesus did. Do you personally even attempt to do that??? For what did Jesus do that according to Christianity that no man did??? He kept the law fully without breaking one law. Now what I would like to know, is why Christians do not even ATTEMPT and TRY to keep the law??? yes it maybe impossible, but didn't God state this:

Never said it was impossible. We just say it was a shadow of the things to come. We know the commands of Christ now. They are not burdensome. 1 John tells us about them.

For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20: 5,6

Now here God himself is stating that he shows mercy to those who love him and keep his commandments. I think if you truly did love God then you would keep his commandments, and if you make a mistake, God states that he will show mercy to you. Even more important, God states that the covenant of love is with those who keep his commandments:

And we are they. His great commandment is to believe on his Son.

Deuteronomy 7:9-12

9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands. 10 But
those who hate him he will repay to their face by destruction;
he will not be slow to repay to their face those who hate him.

11 Therefore, take care to follow the commands, decrees and laws I give you today.

12 If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the LORD your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers.

So God is saying that his covenant of love spans 1000 Generations or about 40,000 years, and since this was given in the time of moses, this covenant should still be in effect today, and this covenant of love from God involves works, specifically the OT. Now if Jesus kept this law, and God himself states that he loves you if you keep this law, why aren't Christians inclined to keep this law and follow it???

Hope to hear your response friend, if I don't respond or I am late, please excuse me. Take care.

Why yes, it has always been the same covenant. Salvation never came through the law though. It was a pointer to the one who would come and that was Christ.

A thread in unorthodox theology might be more fitting to discuss some of these matters.

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I am quite aware that this is not a trinity thread, but I do not know how to start a thread with your original article in it. If you can start it, or kindly tell me how I can put your original OP and your reply in the new thread it would be greatly appreciated. Take care Friend!

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

I am quite aware that this is not a trinity thread, but I do not know how to start a thread with your original article in it. If you can start it, or kindly tell me how I can put your original OP and your reply in the new thread it would be greatly appreciated. Take care Friend!

You don't have to. You can start one in unorthodox Theology about the article and center it on the incarnation.

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Well, I have already started something similar in that forum entitled "Can you defend the Trinity". The thread was turned into this very topic, well mainly about Jesus' dual natures contradicting eachother, so if it is possible, can we add this article to that thread and continue from there???

[ApologiaPhoenix]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Well, I have already started something similar in that forum entitled "Can you defend the Trinity". The thread was turned into this very topic, well mainly about Jesus' dual natures contradicting eachother, so if it is possible, can we add this article to that thread and continue from there???

You'd have to PM Trout on adding the article, though I wouldn't want my article in unorthodox theology.

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Is there a place at all, where your article can be discussed that you would agree to post??? How about Apologetics 301? I am very interested to have this article to be discussed. I would discuss it here, but you stated that you didn't want that to be done.

[moose7237]

Hello and Peace be to you friend,

Since I did not get a response from you, I will refute your argument that you made a couple of posts ago.

This is not a Trinity thread, but I'll say Trinitarians affirm both of those statements. How could Jesus be the servant otherwise? What would you have him say?

#1) I can do anything and the Father is unnecessary.

#2) I don't do what the Father commands but whatever I want.

I honestly don't see how these 2 points relate at all to what I was saying. But what I did say, was that since Jesus COULD not do anything of himself, he lacks the characteristics that God has, and since Jesus in many places refers to the Father as a deity that is in a higher ranking then him by the Father's power, Jesus is inferior to the Father. To top it all, Jesus himself states that the Father is his God after he was glorified and resurrected. Now what I would like to know, is what did Jesus do that qualifies him as being God??? He may have indicated it by words like "before Abraham was I am" but that is just a statement. More like begging the question. I am not convinced by the evidence of the bible to prove that Jesus is God by any of his actions or abilities.

Jesus is not a man? Wow. This must be something new in Islamic theology. No. There's no contradiction as I said in my article. Show me the contradiction you claim, though not here. This is not a Trinity thread.

No, I am just concluding using philosophy and logic based on Christian beliefs as to what Jesus really is. Islam states that Jesus was no more then a man. He is like any other man in the sense of being mortal. I know this is not a trinity thread, but you have not responded to me. So I don't know where else to post. What would a contradiction qualify as??? The hour. If Jesus knew the hour, then he was not telling the truth to the people. If Jesus did not know the hour, he is not omniscient. Another contradiction. Does Jesus have the ability to perform miracles without the Father's permission/assistance??? If yes, then again, he is not telling the truth, thus making him not God, and if no, then he lacks the abilities the Father has, and thus does not make him God. I don't think I ever said that there is a contradiction in your article.

And as far as Jesus being neither a man or God. I explained that. Let me try to give an example that you can maybe relate to a bit better. If you have ever seen the movie X-men, take for example Wolverine. Would you say he is a man??? I would say not, even though he bleeds like a man, he looks like a man, he sleeps, eats, etc. He has abilites no human would have, ergo he is not a man but a mutant. Take this to a whole different level. Jesus may eat like a man, sleep, etc. but since he is also God, he is not a man but higher then a man. And if Jesus is God, then he must not have the ability to lie which is associated with man is having this ability. So he is not God either, because God from what I know in Christian theology CAN'T lie, yet Jesus CAN. I'm not saying Jesus did, but he had the ability to.

I'm understanding you don't know what you're talking about with regards to the Trinity. Philippians 2 anyone?

The incarnation correct??? Then it would be more proper to say that for 33 years when Jesus was on earth, he was only a man and not a God-man. Now as far as I know, isn't God only in his nature all of the time??? So to say that Jesus who was God, took the form of man, is to say that he downgraded so to speak, and therefore is not God anymore. Now I have heard that Jesus added the human nature, if that happened, then really he is still God and would not have needed to depend on the father to perform miracles, or say that he does not know the hour and ONLY the Father does.

Never said it was impossible. We just say it was a shadow of the things to come. We know the commands of Christ now. They are not burdensome. 1 John tells us about them.

If you truly loved God, then you wouldn't state that they are burdensome. The laws that God gives are to benefit us so we can live in a more just society. God does not depend on the deeds man do for him, but the deeds man do for God benefit himself not God. That's the way to Love God and have him love you as he stated in Deuteronomy 7.

And we are they. His great commandment is to believe on his Son.

The devil may believe in Jesus, it won't do him any good. The mere fact that you need to only "believe" in him, shows that anyone can sin and still attain heaven as long as they believe that in someone that walked the earth 2000 years ago. What about a polytheist who may believe in Jesus, will he too gain heaven even though he rejects the greatest commandment which is to declare that God is one??? I think to believe in Jesus and the idea of monotheism, and to follow what God wants is what leads to heaven. Not just believing in Jesus. Remember what James said, faith without works is dead.

Why yes, it has always been the same covenant. Salvation never came through the law though. It was a pointer to the one who would come and that was Christ.

A thread in unorthodox theology might be more fitting to discuss some of these matters.

Salvation never came through the law??? Let me get this straight, God in Deuteronomy 7:9-12 states that he loves those who follow his commandments and that love him, they will not achieve salvation??? God loves them, but even though he loves them they will still go to hell. That doesn't make any sense. If you love someone, you wouldn't want to punish them.

Tell me if I can get this article and all of the responses in Unorthodox Theology or whatever forum and I will be happy to do so. Take care!

[Trout]

[pastor]

Excellent I love your respose