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Thread: LJ, Bill and Carr's coffee table

  1. #11
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    I'm sorry this is so long, but I really wanted to relay the whole story for you to chew on. So without further ado:

    Like Bill, I grew up in the Southern Baptist Church; I was there just about every time the doors were open.
    In fact, I was there a lot of times when the doors weren't open. My family served as the janitors of the church! Most Sat. mornings, when most kids were parked in front of the TV watching cartoons, I, along with my family, were up at the church vacuuming the carpet, scrubbing the toilets and mopping the floors. I can still remember when I made a decision to follow Christ. I followed this decision with baptism. Now, fast forward about 4 years. My family moved to a new city when I was about 12 or so. I had a lot of trouble with adjusting. I was short and small, so I was picked on a lot. But all I wanted was to be one of the cool kids; I wanted to fit in, to be accepted. So, I began hanging with the “cool kids”,d rinking and smoking cigarettes. It was just a few years later that I really began to question whether my walk with Christ was real or not. I began to pray at times, that God would show me that He was real. But I didn’t really know what I was looking for. So all I didn't seem to get any answers. I began to experiment with drugs and became a party animal. I graduated high school and wandered between jobs. I took a couple of college classes, but I didn't have any direction. I took a job in a city about 4 hours away, at a radio station owned by my uncle. I was living with him at the time, but he soon asked me to leave his house because I wouldn’t follow his rules and curfews. I ended up living in an old studio site.The old studio was where our radio towers were. This thing was literally a shack in the middle of the woods. It had a sink and toilet, but no bathtub or shower. One night, when I was alone in my shack, I was watching the only channel on the TV that I could get, (I had this wire strung around the room as an antenna just so I could get this channel) and a preacher came on. I didn't want to hear what He had to say. I didn't think he had any answers I wanted to hear. As I stood up to turn off the TV, the preacher said don't turn that TV off, I need to tell you just how much God loves you. He began to tell me of God’s love for me that included sacrificing His own son just so that I could be His friend. So, that night I decide to try this Jesus thing again, because what I was doing was making me miserable. So, I decided to move back home and try to clean up my life. (The year btw was 1981 and if you knew the dynamics of the Texas area around that time it would be more significant, but,you're probably too young to know)


    Now, back home was the "old crowd", all my old friends, and they were still partying and carousing.
    So, I ended up with a sort of double life, partying Friday and Saturday nights and going to church on Sunday and Wednesday. I had an attraction to the church, but I couldn't shake the old life completely. I began taking some college classes at the local community college, and they had a Baptist Student Union (BSU) but not everyone who frequented it was Baptist. I quickly made friends with "Jerry". Jerry was a member of the Assemblies of God Church (A/G) and he invited me to their young adult worship. It was there that I first heard of, and saw the practice of speaking in tongues. I didn't really know what to think, but I thought it was strange...weird even. I wondered if it was biblical, so I began by asking Jerry why they did that. He gave me some scriptures and tried to explain it. I next asked my Dad about it. He had been a Christian his whole life and really knew the bible. He said that, yeah, it's in the bible, but he thought it wasn't really valid anymore. (A semi-cessationist view I guess). Everyone he personally knew that believed in it well, he kind of thought they were flaky. He thought they always seemed to have issues in their life. I asked one of our Deacons what he thought about it. He looked me right in the eye and said, and I quote, "I believe it's of the Devil and anyone who does it is possessed". I thought, wow, that doesn't jive with my friends over at the A/G church. Jerry and I were becoming close friend by now. So, I talked to some more A/G people and got some more scriptures, and went and sat down with my pastor. He of course didn't want to hear any of this. As I pointed out scriptures to ask him what he thought of them, he smiled that patronizing smile at me and reached over and closed my bible. Then he said, it's not for today. You need to forget this foolishness.

    So, I was really conflicted by this point as just about every person I really respected, disbelieved it; sometimes strongly. I keep praying about it and reading some books both pro and con. By this time, I was going to school full time by now and was working full time as well. So in the summer of 1983, I decided to take a vacation. I went to see my best friend in High School who was stationed at the Naval Air Station in Beeville, Texas. We had a good reunion, and I decided to stop by my aunts and uncles house in Austin on the way home and visit my cousin who I hadn't seen in a while. My uncle had quite an extensive library. A book caught my eye…"The Satan Seller" by Mike Warnke.(Warnke's reputation has taken a beating rightfully so probably), but at the end of the book, Warnke gives a plug for receiving the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. By this time, I was kind of tired of trying to figure it out. My practical, logical brain, coupled with my staunch Baptist upbringing, along with all those naysayers, just couldn't make the leap to believing it was real. But once again I was hit with someone touting the benefits and scriptural validity of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit along with speaking in tongues. So, I sat there on the bed in my aunt and uncle’s guest bedroom and thought about it for a minute. I bowed my head and simply said to God,"God, I just don't know if this stuff is real. I don't know if it's for everyone or not. But if it's real and you want me to have it, please let me receive it. "What happened next is almost indescribable...but I'll try. I began to feel a euphoria that was so strong, so unlike ANYTHING I had ever felt in my life. It literally overwhelmed me. I fell sideways on the bed and began to laugh and cry at the same time as it continued to build. I've never come up with an adequate explanation for what I was feeling. What I tell everyone is that it felt like my soul was being split in two and pure unadulterated JOY was being poured directly into the center of my being. It began to crest and ebb and crest and ebb, and all I could do was to lie there on my side, and utter praises to God, both in English and in some other language. I really have no idea how long it lasted but it seemed like an eternity. When I was finally able to sit up, still shaking, I realized that my question(s) had been answered and unmistakably so.

    One more fast-forward. A little while later (6-12 months maybe?), I'm going through a rough patch, life is really testing me. I remember I was driving down the road, and everything just began to mentally beat on me. I once again, was wondering...Where IS God in all this? I stopped in a parking lot of a Big Box store, and parked my truck. I just began to weep, and I cried out to God and said, are you still there? Where are you? Maybe the only time I really felt like God was speaking directly to me...almost audibly, but not, still ,I felt God say to me "Do you remember not too long ago? What happened in that bedroom? Was that real, or did you imagine it?" It was at that moment I realized, that point in that bedroom, (now 30+ years ago) would be (certainly Is still to this day) a literal touchstone in my life. It continues to remind me God is real; He is always with me, even when I don't feel like it. Even when some doubts creep in, they don't last long. I always come back to this event. It’s as real to me as my marriage, the birth of my children, it’s a permanent part of who I am...and it never fails to remind me I'm loved by God.
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-09-2016 at 07:09 PM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  2. Amen Raphael, Bill the Cat, 37818 amen'd this post.
  3. #12
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing, guys. Questions are forthcoming (surprise!).
    I'm not here anymore.

  4. #13
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill the Cat View Post
    Ok, short on time to be sure, but here goes: Sorry this is so scattershot...


    I had grown up in a Southern Baptist church. I got my best sleep in the balcony during services. Anyway, I had never heard of tongues or anything like it because I really didn't care at that point to pay much attention. I believed in this concept of a "Jesus", but never anything I could actually tell you about. Anyway, off to the Air Force and back. Got really saved in the process, but still not sold out to learn the Bible..

    Well, as a favor to my now deceased brother-in-law, I started attending his church to play on the softball team. I was a really good pitcher, and we even won our league championship! It was at that church, a International Pentecostal Holiness Church, that I was introduced to speaking in tongues, and it was there that my fervor for the things of God was set on fire. I started dating my wife, Mrs the Cat, during that time, and she got saved there too. Well, she started speaking in tongues before I did. I'd regularly hear her praying and words I didn't understand were coming out of her mouth. Well, that church folded when the pastor died. He was a giant man who could stomp his feet and wag his finger like no one I've ever heard.

    We moved houses at the time to get to a better school district for our girls, and started attending another IPHC church. I was (to be completely honest) jealous of my wife's "prayer language", as it was called there. I tried so hard to force myself into it, but it just wouldn't come out of me. Well, we had a revival and the speaker called for altar call, so I went. I confessed my jealousy to the Lord and had several people praying for me, and then the next thing I know, I'm coming to on the ground. I literally have no clue what happened to me from my own observation. My wife told me I stiffened up, hit the floor and started "going off in words she had never heard". Like I said, I had absolutely no idea what had happened, but I knew something had happened because the people praying for me were staring at me. All said the same thing my wife said, that I was down for like 2 minutes giving a "tongues speech"!

    I continued to be able to pray that way for about 2-3 months, and then it suddenly stopped, and to be 100% transparent, it stopped when I started to get into apologetics here. But I can say for 100% sure that I know that I know that God did that for me when I needed it most, and it has been a very tangible piece of my faith ever since. It is as real to me as the people standing here at my office. When I encounter times of doubt, I remember what He did for me. Nothing in this world could ever shake my faith enough to make me believe that it didn't happen or that I somehow faked it.


    How common is speaking in tongues in your church? Is it treated as a sort of rare gift, or is it expected that most/all should be able to do it? The jealousy makes sense to me in the latter context, but I'm not sure it does in the former. The same is true of them all staring at you.

    Why would it stop when you got into apologetics? My grandmother would take that as a sign that you'd strayed from the path, so to speak. Do you think that, too? I could see the timing as coincidence, but your writing makes it sound like you don't view it that way.

    Last question:
    The last paragraph here makes it sound like you were having doubts or something prior to this experience. Was that the case? I'm not sure I understand "what He did for me" as a resolution to the jealousy issue.
    I'm not here anymore.

  5. #14
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    The year btw was 1981 and if you knew the dynamics of the Texas area around that time it would be more significant, but,you're probably too young to know).
    For what it's worth, I was born in June 1984. I don't know anything about the dynamics at the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    What happened next is almost indescribable...but I'll try. I began to feel a euphoria that was so strong, so unlike ANYTHING I had ever felt in my life. It literally overwhelmed me. I fell sideways on the bed and began to laugh and cry at the same time as it continued to build. I've never come up with an adequate explanation for what I was feeling. What I tell everyone is that it felt like my soul was being split in two and pure unadulterated JOY was being poured directly into the center of my being. It began to crest and ebb and crest and ebb, and all I could do was to lie there on my side, and utter praises to God, both in English and in some other language. I really have no idea how long it lasted but it seemed like an eternity. When I was finally able to sit up, still shaking, I realized that my question(s) had been answered and unmistakably so.
    Was this a one-shot deal? Have you spoken in tongues since then?

    It's interesting to me that your account is something you experienced directly while Bill's is something other people told him had happened. They're drastically different experiences, from where I sit. I understand you needing to know it yourself since no one was there to tell you what happened, but I'm not sure I understand why Bill couldn't have experienced his directly, as well.
    Last edited by Carrikature; 04-12-2016 at 05:53 PM.
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  6. #15
    Thanks Old Man... Bill the Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrikature View Post
    How common is speaking in tongues in your church?
    It happens. It isn't like that is all that happens in the whole service though. It's typically a quick thing and then someone else says what they feel the Lord was saying.

    Is it treated as a sort of rare gift, or is it expected that most/all should be able to do it?
    It's a gift. It isn't rare, but it isn't expected either. It just sort of... is. It's hard to explain if you aren't there. Sorry.

    The jealousy makes sense to me in the latter context, but I'm not sure it does in the former. The same is true of them all staring at you.
    It's a valuable gift, so the jealousy was more about me not receiving the valuable thing despite how bad I wanted it.

    Why would it stop when you got into apologetics?
    Not sure. Perhaps it was my faith moving from emotion to intellectual?

    My grandmother would take that as a sign that you'd strayed from the path, so to speak.
    I'd disagree, naturally. I see it as something I needed at the time, but don't any more.

    Do you think that, too?
    It's more like the way I see my marriage. I've been married for 24 years. When the marriage was new, it was all about the emotional and the "wow", but it began to fade, as all relationships naturally do. When the raw emotion was stripped away, there was a deeper and more abiding friendship and true love than what I had at first. Now, I'm not saying that all tongues are like emotional highs, just that mine seemed to coincide with my faith moving away from strictly emotional highs.

    I could see the timing as coincidence, but your writing makes it sound like you don't view it that way.
    It could be. Or not. I just leave that to God. He knows why He gave it to me and why it stopped when it did.

    Last question:
    The last paragraph here makes it sound like you were having doubts or something prior to this experience. Was that the case? I'm not sure I understand "what He did for me" as a resolution to the jealousy issue.
    Yeah, I was having major doubts. Saw too many people hopped up on "spiritual highs" fall away and it made me wonder why.


    Without a clear-cut definition of sin, morality becomes a mere argument over the best way to train animals --- Manya the Holy Szin --- The Quintara Marathon ---

    I may not be as old as dirt, but me and dirt are starting to have an awful lot in common --- Stephen R. Donaldson ---

  7. Amen Littlejoe, Carrikature amen'd this post.
  8. #16
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrikature View Post
    For what it's worth, I was born in June 1984. I don't know anything about the dynamics at the time.
    Yeah...I figured...

    Ok, just briefly, the "charismatic" movement had really been making headlines and there were rumblings of this "speaking in tongues" in a lot of churches. The SBC was seeing this as well. Unfortunately, there were church splits over it as some members became very vocal after experiencing it. As a (relatively) newbie (since I had just recently come back into the church) I didn't know all this was going on until I was introduced to it via "Jerry's" church. Of course, it's like when you by a car, you think, I haven't seen to many of these cars especially in this color, and as soon as you buy it, you start seeing the same car in the same color every time you turn the corner... So all of the sudden I was seeing different people, even in SBC churches, promoting it. It was an interesting time. CP might could give some more insight as he was more involved with SBC churches at this time...



    Was this a one-shot deal?
    If these two questions were related I apologize, but it's really two different answers.
    This particular experience was a one-time thing. I've never before or since had anything like it.
    Have you spoken in tongues since then?
    Yes, I continue to speak in tongues to this day. If I am in a church service, I am very careful to be low and quiet with it so as to not give the impression I am giving a message in tongues. I pray in tongues often though.

    It's interesting to me that your account is something you experienced directly while Bill's is something other people told him had happened. They're drastically different experiences, from where I sit. I understand you needing to know it yourself since no one was there to tell you what happened, but I'm not sure I understand why Bill couldn't have experienced his directly, as well.
    That's a good question...and I'm not sure I have an answer. As you said, since I was alone, and because of it's importance to me, it was crucial I remember. I don't know how much or how little Bill remembers of his experience, he obviously remembered enough to know something definitely happened. Otherwise he could just say he feinted...

    If you're open to second hand anecdotal accounts, I have a really good friend who is a Baptist minister (SBC) and he related a similar type experience as mine only his was even more incredible. I was setting here trying to recount his exact experience and find it's a little fuzzy. But I remember he was in a "vision" and in the vision the roof was torn off of his house and a mighty wind rushed into his room and he began to speak in tongues. (That's as close as I can get.) When I tried to describe my experience - like I said in my previous account, "my spirit being split and pure joy being poured into the center of my being..." he was setting there nodding with a stunned look on his face and said, that's the best description I've ever heard and it's really close to what I felt. It's funny because his experience and mine are similar enough we both believe it was God's way of confirming for us our faith, yet some of our other beliefs are quite a ways apart. For instance, he's a pretty staunch Calvinist and I'm the polar opposite - Open Theist.

    ETA: Really, I think there are quite a bit of similarity in Bill's and my experience. About the only difference is possibly... the "depth" of the experience...as well I guess as the public vs. private settings, otherwise it looks like they are pretty close to the same.
    Last edited by Littlejoe; 04-13-2016 at 05:27 PM.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  9. #17
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    Ok, just briefly, the "charismatic" movement had really been making headlines and there were rumblings of this "speaking in tongues" in a lot of churches.
    Incidentally, the church my family was attending billed itself as 'charismatic'. I never understood what that was supposed to mean. That would have been mid-90's, so it's probably more of the same.



    I am going to detail my own experiences more. I'll post again with that. Fair warning that it will be long.
    I'm not here anymore.

  10. Amen Trout, Littlejoe, RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  11. #18
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    I'm sorry it's taking me so long to reply to this thread. I am working on it, but it's proving a lot harder than I thought it would. In the interest of getting something down, I thought I'd give a little bit of background information/context. Some of these things might not be relevant, but you never know. (It's also 2am so please forgive grammar/spelling mistakes.)


    None of you will know this, but I have a really horrible memory when it comes to events and dates. IF I remember events, my memory tends to be fairly detailed. It's a pretty big 'if', though. A lot of what I know happened when I was a kid comes from other people telling stories. Direct memories of anything are pretty rare. I can, sometimes, piece together things that led up to and out of a specific event that I do recall. I have a rough sense of how events relate to each other in time. I can use that information to piece together approximate dates. It's mostly context-dependent, though. A good example is the ages of my four cousins in one family. I never forget how far apart their ages are, but I seldom can figure out how old any one of them is. If I can get one sorted, I can get the rest sorted. It's kinda weird, and I don't know if that makes sense, but that's how it works. I can try to explain better if needed.

    I think I have more milestones these days, so it's easier for me to keep events in their relative place in time. That wasn't the case when most of these things were happening to me. I've tried to sort out what was happening when, but it's not working very well. So here's what I do know, but understand this is more knowledge of facts than specific memories. This is going to be disjointed. Please bear with me.

    1) It's May-ish 1992, as best I can figure. My grandfather on my dad's side dies. I don't remember much about him, though. It was his second heart attack. I remember being at someone's house for the post-funeral reception (pretty sure it was my uncle's house). One of the 'this doesn't make sense' things is that I distinctly remember my cousins (who I didn't know) watching a real-person version of Jungle Book, but that didn't come out until 1994. It might have been the 1942 version, but that doesn't make much sense, either. It's not important, obviously, but this should give you a sense of what I mean regarding timelines and memories.

    2) My parents split up sometime after grandpa's death. I don't know when this happened, but I can sort of work back to 1992. My guess is August. I know that my parents were split up for ~5.5 years. My mother, both sisters, and I moved back in with my dad the first of January 1998. That was middle of 8th grade for me. So yeah, that puts the split was in the summer of 1992. I would have been 8. For what it's worth, I have no internal sense that these two events were so close together. Mom has said that part of their split was due to dad's reaction to grandpa's death, though, so I guess it makes sense.

    3) My great-grandmother on my mom's side dies. I don't know what year this happened, but I'm 99% certain it was 1992 also. It had to be pre-split, though. My great-grandparents lived in Indiana, but would come down to Texas for the winters. The four of us (two sisters, mom, and I) moved into their Texas house after the split, and I'm under the impression we knew he wouldn't be using it anytime soon. This bit isn't terribly important, but it supports the sense I had at ~11ish that everything happened when I was 8.

    4) The whole time my parents were split-up, we were living on my mom's parents' property near Waco. My great-grandparent's house was there. We later moved an old mobile home that my parents owned to the property. At various points in time, both of my mom's sisters and their families were also living on the same property. Some of them still do. (Dad calls it the commune. Mom calls it a blackhole, since no one but us seems capable of leaving that place. Both are pretty spot on.)

    5) My sisters and I started out at the local public school. I know I was bullied pretty bad by this one girl, but I honestly don't remember any of it.

    6) I have no idea what mom was doing for work at first. At some point, I know she got an emergency teaching certification and started teaching math at a private Christian school. I don't know how long she was working there before we were able to switch schools, but I know it was middle of 4th grade for me when we changed over. I have the sense that a serious consideration for getting us into the new school quickly was to get me out of the public school, but I don't know that for a fact.

    7) Mom spent the summers finishing her bachelor's degree. I don't know when this started, but I don't think it was the first summer. I think it was 1994, and it was due in part to getting a full teaching certification. Thing is, her classes were out of UTSA, so she spent most of the summer in San Antonio while us three kids stayed with my grandparents. I have no idea how many years this happened, but it was at least two.

    8) My mom's parents are not nice people, particularly my grandmother. This isn't just me saying that, either. For example, my wife and I got married in San Antonio, but I was living in Dallas at the time. My grandparents seriously considered not bringing our presents to the wedding so that we would have to stop by their house after our honeymoon to pick them up. Another time, my grandmother told one of my cousins, that he needed to stop drinking diet soda because he couldn't afford the damage it did to his brain (based on some report that the artificial sweetener caused memory loss or something). He was ~10 at the time. The last time I saw them, I was meeting them for dinner on my way down to San Antonio for Christmas. My daughter was probably 6mos old at the time. One of the first things they talked about was one of my cousins starting soccer. My grandpa's comment was that maybe she would actually move faster, and something to the effect of having to put stakes down to see she was moving. My grandmother caught the look on my face and proceeded to assure me it was ok for him to say that because he had said the same thing to her pretty much their whole life (since they started dating). They drove down one time unannounced...grandpa took my youngest sister and I out to pick up pizza so my grandmother could tell mom how she was supposed to handle my other sister (said advice unsolicited and undesired). I could go on and on. I'm not even sure if these sound that bad, but trust me when I say they're merely the tip of the iceberg. Everything revolves around them, but it's never their fault when people get upset by their actions. They're huge hypocrites, extremely judgmental, and prone to "credit cards are the Mark of the Beast" sort of thinking (not making that one up).

    Suffice to say, if I never see them again, it will be too soon. I don't want my daughter to be around them at all. One advantage to moving to Oregon is that I can finally stop worrying that they'll show up on my doorstep one day. I can't tell you how much time I've spent worrying how to handle that event.

    9) My uncle (at the time) was a pastor. He was in the Air Force prior to that, stationed in San Antonio, but I don't know if he was a chaplain there or not. I think not. I know when he and my aunt moved up to my grandparent's property, he became pastor for a tiny church that was roughly 5 miles away. Tiny means maybe twenty regular attendees. I know we went there sometimes, but I don't know when or why. I know it wasn't all the time. At some point in there, he was youth pastor for another local church.

    This is the guy that baptized me. It's also the same guy that had a kid out of wedlock with my aunt. Same guy who had at least one affair, a lady he married after he and my aunt divorced. The same guy that afterward moved back to San Antonio and was working as part of the SBC and was children's pastor (maybe assistant pastor?) at one of the bigger churches there.

    10) We attended at least four churches while we lived on my parents were separated. Three of them were Baptist. One was charismatic. The charismatic church we started going to with my grandparents. That church was, and is, super into Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, and the like. Google them if you don't know who they are. It's super Word of Faith movement and super prosperity theology. It's speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, casting out demons, talking to angels, etc., etc.

    At some point, something snapped with my mom, and she quit going. She told me the specific event, but I'll save that for later. My sisters and I were reluctant to change churches (me most of all), but we eventually did. My grandparents stopped going eventually, but for many years they were involved in what they called (I think) freedom and recovery. Short version is they believed that bad actions, thoughts, habits are due to demonic influence. They helped exorcise the demons and establish new patterns of behavior that would keep the demons from coming back.



    I think that's a good place to stop for now. It gets messier from here, but I think this establishes a pretty good foundation for what's going on at the time. Part 2 will be what happened during my time at the charismatic church. Part 3 will be what I'll call 'aftermath'...basically where I ended up with all this in high school and college.

    Feel free to ask questions on any of this.
    I'm not here anymore.

  12. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  13. #19
    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrikature View Post
    Fair warning that it will be long.
    I did warn you that this would be long.
    I'm not here anymore.

  14. Amen Littlejoe amen'd this post.
  15. #20
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    I think #10 is the most disturbing...Neither Bill nor I think much of Ken Nopeland, Jessie Dupe-us and their ilk. Pretty much anything they say needs to be discounted. So I can already see a problem...
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  16. Amen Bill the Cat, Chaotic Void amen'd this post.

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