Attn: Mountain Man. Where the rubber hits the road: Wicca vs. Christianity

[tmancour]

And I bet, on a whole, you think you stand pretty good as far as the judgment of your conscience is concerned. The ol' "I'm a pretty good person" standard, right? To quote Grantly Morris:

Issues That Make Christians Squirm

Naturally, there is a degree of hurt we deem excusable, and for some suspicious reason the hurt we have inflicted happens to fall within the standard we arbitrarily set. It is like failing an exam and then moving the pass mark to make our score look good. A holy God could not be partner to such hypocrisy.

http://net-burst.net/hot/evil.htm#suf

© source where applicable

Actually, I do -- but not because I don't look too closely. My conscience is clear because I strive to take responsibility for my actions, which is a principal of the Path of Wisdom. Introspection and constant self-evaluation are how I examine it, and against a far higher standard than I hold anyone else. After all, I'm my own worst -- and best -- judge of my character, and only I have responsibility for me. Just because I don't use somebody else's antiquated standards as my yardstick doesn't mean I don't have standards, and rigorously enforce them. And I don't cop out by invoking a deity and abrogating my responsibility every time I screw up.

Arion

[gharfish]

Matthew 16:27-28 also seems to say that Christ would return sometime in the first century. Some have said that it refers to the transfiguration, but verse 27 says that everyone will be rewarded based on their works when Christ comes back, and there was no judgment at the transfiguration.

You're right: the two verses are absolutely connected at the word juction, "And assuredly...," and so v. 27 is additional proof that 28 cannot refer to the transfiguartion. Again, Jesus gives a false prophecy about his bodily second coming. I am among the "some" who just aren't in the "mainstream" on the subject. And, sadly, there are so many like me.

I leave this thread to the curious about white witchcraft.

[Mountain Man]

Actually, I do -- but not because I don't look too closely. My conscience is clear because I strive to take responsibility for my actions, which is a principal of the Path of Wisdom. Introspection and constant self-evaluation are how I examine it, and against a far higher standard than I hold anyone else. After all, I'm my own worst -- and best -- judge of my character, and only I have responsibility for me. Just because I don't use somebody else's antiquated standards as my yardstick doesn't mean I don't have standards, and rigorously enforce them. And I don't cop out by invoking a deity and abrogating my responsibility every time I screw up.

You seem to think that Christians will sail through life without having to ever face the consequences of their actions. That is not true. It seems most likely to me that our station in heaven will depend on our actions in this life. Those who battle their sin nature and do all for the glory of God will be afforded a higher place of honor than those who simply coast through (see the Parable of the Talents). Also, Paul makes it clear that our (meaning Christians) actions will be judged by God:

1 Corinthians 3:11-15

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

As for holding yourself to a standard, I'm sure you think the standard you hold yourself to is very high, but I can guarantee that for the Christian, the standard is much higher.

James 2:10

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

You see, for the Christian, doing good 40% of the time, 50%, even 75%, heck, even 99.9% of the time is not good enough. Not even close. The standard we are held to is perfection, so when someone tells us, "I'm a pretty good person; I mean, it's not like I've ever done anything really bad," we just have to shake our heads and marvel at the self-deception of man (a deception, mind you, that even Christians are all too familiar with).

So you may think you're doing pretty well for yourself, but the truth is, without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, you're going to hear the most chilling words ever spoken:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

[Lili]

The problem with that is the parousia itself is discussed in vv 30-31.

Some say that verse 30 is an allusion to Daniel 7:13, which is about the Messiah coming toward Heaven to receive his kingdom from God. I have been reading some articles about Matthew 24. One argument that I have seen on a few of them is that when the disciples asked when the parousia would happen, they must not have been talking about the second advent because at that time, they did not know that Christ was leaving. According to this site:

Incidentally, when the disciples asked the Lord about His coming, they were not asking about His return, because they did not know that He was leaving (John 12:34; 13:33-36; 16:16-17). The word used by the disciples in asking about the "coming" of Christ is the Greek word “parousia” which means “presence” (Mat. 24:3). Thus, the disciples were asking Jesus how He would signify His presence as Messiah to Israel.

[tmancour]

You seem to think that Christians will sail through life without having to ever face the consequences of their actions. That is not true. It seems most likely to me that our station in heaven will depend on our actions in this life. Those who battle their sin nature and do all for the glory of God will be afforded a higher place of honor than those who simply coast through.

The problem is, Christianity makes just that not only possible, but actively encourages it. Here in the Deep South no preacher is going to be worth his salt unless he's got a sordid past to brag about escaping. The "get out of hell free card" clause makes it all too easy for Christians to act against their religion, indulging in sin, with the knowlege that confession and atonement will (in most sects) allow them to escape the spiritual consequences of their actions. Perhaps that's not how you interpret the scriptures, but that's prevailing practice. The polytheistic belief in karma makes it abundantly clear that no matter how contrite you are, you must eventually face the consequences of your actions. It's Responsibility religion, an orthopraxic belief.

As for holding yourself to a standard, I'm sure you think the standard you hold yourself to is very high, but I can guarantee that for the Christian, the standard is much higher.

And I'm sure you believe that whole-heartedly. I find this is a common conceit of Radical Monotheistic religions, that they alone hold the gold standard and without their particular brand of scripture all hope of worthiness is absent. That's great if you like to spend your lifetime standing around and arguing about what the long-dead mystics meant, after numerous translations, about spiritual concepts that there's no sure way to confirm the meaning of, but some of us have values that put a life well-lived above a life lived in timidity. And while you might view my life-centric approach to life to be somehow lower than yours, I assure you that I feel the same way about yours. I'd rather have a spiritual goal in this lifetime that is realistically acheiveable, not an impossible-to-reach state whereon the entirity of existance depends.

You see, for the Christian, doing good 40% of the time, 50%, even 75%, heck, even 99.9% of the time is not good enough. Not even close. The standard we are held to is perfection, so when someone tells us, "I'm a pretty good person; I mean, it's not like I've ever done anything really bad," we just have to shake our heads and marvel at the self-deception of man (a deception, mind you, that even Christians are all too familiar with).

So the standard by which you measure yourself you admit you have no real hope of acheiving. I find this another common element of Radical Monotheists, the adoration of frustratrion that comes with perpetual failure. You know you can never get there, not really, so most of you don't even try. Bare lip service on the Sabbath and then, conscience clear, back to spiritual banality on Monday Morning. Sure, one out of a hundred of you strive for more, maybe one out of a thousand take your ideals seriously, but the defeatism implicit in perfection in life leads to a focus on the afterlife as the only real reward. That denigrates the importance of this life which, in my values, is the more important of the two.

And the standards I hold myself to are high, the highest I know. I came up with them myself. Since I am the only real judge of my conduct, no one else's standards really apply -- and what a five-thousand year old desert mystic thought about masturbation really doesn't enter into those values. I have cultivated them carefully, with much introspection, meditation, and self-reflection, and have examined my actions daily in an effort to judge myself and improve myself. With an honest and forthright desire to hold myself to that standard, and only myself to blame if I don't, there are few chances at self-deception there. I don't say "I'm a pretty good person" because I haven't killed anyone, I look at my effect on my community and family and the world around me and judge as to whether I have been an asset or liability. A different moral paradigm all together.

So you may think you're doing pretty well for yourself, but the truth is, without the saving grace of Jesus Christ, you're going to hear the most chilling words ever spoken:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Since I don't pretend to prophesy in Jehovah's name or drive out any demons or such, I'm not worried. I have stuck to the gods of my ancestors and prophesy in their name, and work magic of my own volition with their guidance. If I ever do face your deity's throne and he judges me on such pettiness (an occasion I have serious reason to doubt will ever arise) then that will say far more about that deity than it does me and my character.

Arion the Blue

[tmancour]

Precisely.

Mountain Man (and any other Christians reading this thread), I realize the information presented here is not sufficient to sway any of you away from Christianity. This is good, because doing so is farthest from my intentions.

However, the information presented here (along with a mountain of other information) is sufficient to persuade me that Christianity is based on false claims. Christianity is a false path--but I do not at all desire to sway even a single Christian away from Christianity.

Believe as you wish, with my full respect and blessing (should you need them). Allow me the same respect and blessing--or if you cannot, do not treat me as a fool because I do not follow your path.

I think you sum up quite well the common Pagan's approach to the issue. Thanks!

[Lili]

According to this site:

Incidentally, when the disciples asked the Lord about His coming, they were not asking about His return, because they did not know that He was leaving (John 12:34; 13:33-36; 16:16-17). The word used by the disciples in asking about the "coming" of Christ is the Greek word “parousia” which means “presence” (Mat. 24:3). Thus, the disciples were asking Jesus how He would signify His presence as Messiah to Israel.

[interrapax]

Most Pagans profess a cyclical worldview, and the whole idea that “salvation” or “damnation” based on one ephemeral lifetime is laughable. And no, scriptural references aren’t likely to change our minds – there are just too darn many scriptures out there. It is better, in our opinion, to live our lives according to our own consciences than to strive to live up to some half-understood tribal ideal from a culture radically different from our own.

Exactly, why on earth should you strive up to live up some half-understood tribal ideal from a culture radicall different than your own? good thing you got those very modern western thoughts of reincarnation, carma etc.. Those are definitly not from a culture totally different. + Theyre so inn these days :)

I totally understand why you would choose something as consistent and, not to say modern, as a syncretism of eastern and pagan beliefs.

Who on earth would have the free gourmet stake, when you can pick and mix from a cheap buffet for only 2 bucks?

Pax

[Durthorin]

Exactly, why on earth should you strive up to live up some half-understood tribal ideal from a culture radicall different than your own? good thing you got those very modern western thoughts of reincarnation, carma etc.. Those are definitly not from a culture totally different. + Theyre so inn these days :)

I totally understand why you would choose something as consistent and, not to say modern, as a syncretism of eastern and pagan beliefs.

Who on earth would have the free gourmet stake, when you can pick and mix from a cheap buffet for only 2 bucks?

Pax

Perhaps because many of us are ex-Christians and in the end, our Pagan faith works in our lives while Christanity does not. To us Christianity was unfufilling, it cheapened the beauty of the world and the people we walked with. To us the steak you offer is rotten.. the meat bad and it comes with a hidden price that will make us sick.

[Broseph]

OK wow. Whoever thinks Christianity isn't fulfilling isn't a doesn't know what it is. And actually Both religions are pretty old, if you see wicca as another form of Hinduism, which it is. And Christian/western culture is the norm

[Broseph]

whops i misspelled some words and messed up sentences didn't i?

[technomage]

Whoever thinks Christianity isn't fulfilling isn't a doesn't know what it is.

Christianity certainly can be fulfilling for many ... but seemingly not for everyone. I was one of those for whom it was not (and I also did not truly know what Christianity is back then).

And actually Both religions are pretty old, if you see wicca as another form of Hinduism, which it is.

Um ... no. While Gardner's work may have had some third or fourth-hand relationship with Hinduism, it's mainly based on what he thought was European pre-Christian religions. He was incorrect about the pre-Christian part, but he meant well.

And Christian/western culture is the norm

That it is ... but "norm" does not mean that all people in the set are members.

whops i misspelled some words and messed up sentences didn't i?

It's OK, we all do from time to time.

Welcome to TWeb!

[tmancour]

OK wow. Whoever thinks Christianity isn't fulfilling isn't a doesn't know what it is.

Actually, most of us know quite a lot about Christianity, as most of us are former Christians who sought mightily within that faith and found it wanting. Indeed, most of us know far too much about Christianity to be able to practice it's current form with a straight face.

And actually Both religions are pretty old, if you see wicca as another form of Hinduism, which it is.

While both religions are Indo-European derived (or inspired) polytheistic religions, they are only marginally connected. The age of the religion isn't the issue -- it's the effectiveness.

And Christian/western culture is the norm

And that's where a lot of us see the problem lies.

Arion the Blue
High Druid of Durham

[franktalk]

technomage ,


I think you said -
"The focus of this thread is thus: why should I abandon my beliefs for beliefs that I have already experienced (remember, I am a former Christian), and already discovered are wrong? "

I would like to chat about you experiencing a belief system. I for one believe there is power in the spirit world. Would you care to share any of your experiences?

[technomage]

I would like to chat about you experiencing a belief system.

You and I have had previous conversations, Frank--and flatly, I am not sure you are competent to discuss physical reality, much less spiritual reality. Your views of uniformitarianism (among other issues) are nothing less than a fantasy that you use to attempt to shield your personal beliefs from examination--examination that you attempt to apply to the beliefs of others, but refuse to accept also apply to your beliefs.

That being said, I will gladly answer any questions that you may have, but I fear I place little or no faith in the accuracy of your analyses.