Attn: Mountain Man. Where the rubber hits the road: Wicca vs. Christianity

[tmancour]

I did not think you were saying that, it just came across that way (I did say "seems").

In the end, though, doesn't your view reduce (or find its origin in) relativism? Or are you just saying that what matters is what you personally find fulfilling?

I guess what I am asking is this:

Would you try to be a "missionary" for Wicca, leading other people into it who have not previously expressed an interest, or do you just let people go their own way?

While I can't speak for Dur, I can assure you that being a "missionary" for Wicca is antithetical to the practice of the religion. We don't get bonus points for conversion, neither do we seek to impose our beliefs and practices on those who have no interest or desire.

Case in point: I'm considering taking on a new apprentice, and far from extolling the virtues and power that can be found in Wicca, I'm doing my best to communicate the level of commitment and hard work required for any true progress to be made to her. Only after I'm satisfied that she's aware of what will be required and I'm certain that she is willing to follow through with the long arduous path that she will have to follow will I begin instruction. Once that commitment is made, however, I will do my utmost to pass along to her every bit of wisdom, lore, and dedication that I have at my disposal.

[tmancour]

Shoot, ‘Initiated,’ capitalized yet! Seems as though there’s a ceremony that gives qualified persons individual and personal powers that they never had before. I don’t mean things like Presidential Inaugurals, when Bushes and Obamas get to lord over cattle-like people.

This demonstrates your incomplete understanding of the role of Initiation in the Neo-Pagan traditions. Firstly, the ceremony is not what imparts individual and personal powers, no more than taking a test for a black belt in karate confers upon you the "powers" of a black belt -- it is the long period of intense study, introspection, and spiritual discipline that does so. An Initiation ceremony completes that study and, when properly done, can reveal insights and benefits to the Initiated that cannot be easily (some say ever) communicated through words; it is the culmination of a Mystery, that is, something that must be experienced in order to be known. Since Initiation in our traditions implies that level of dedication, we naturally confer upon it a level of reverence that Christians often reserve for sacraments. Are you just as offended by the capitalization and mystic significance of Baptism?

Secondly, because of the nature of the Initiation, it is commonly held amongst most Neo-Pagan traditions that trying to discuss the transformation at all, much less with people who have not shared the common experience, is pointless and degrading to those who have put in the hard work and dedication necessary for Initiation.

I wonder, incidentally, if you ever tried the Rosicrucians’ stuff.

Unlike Christianity, which has the Bible as its textbook or handbook, so to speak, open to all, so to speak, again, you Wiccans have to depend on occultry, seems like. Why, you lose all your Wiccan powers if everyone has at least an idea of how to get them or what the ceremony is like! I had no idea they were that finicky.

Yes, Christianity has the Bible as a textbook and/or handbook. Sixteen odd different versions, open to radical and occult interpretations, arguments, conflicts, disagreements, and outright dishonesty. It's "open" to all sorts of things -- except a concise, easy-to-understand inarguable "truth". Wiccan practice emphasizes the importance of personal experience and direct revelation -- we don't need 2000 year old wise men to tell us how to live. We're perfectly capable of figuring that out for ourselves. And lightly sharing such wisdom with those unprepared to accept or appreciate it would run counter to the dictates of wisdom. It's not that we're finicky -- we just have standards.

Vampires shrink from the light; the creatures of the Wiccan world that gives you your special powers shrink correspondingly from public attention. I guess a limit must be put on the number of mages and magettes!

No, the intelligence, wisdom, and dedication required to be considered among the Wise limits the number of practitioners. And your analogy to vampires is just insulting. Our "special" powers are the result of years of study and dedication and practice. We earn them and suffer for them.

I'm unsure what Jesus had in mind when he said 'this generation . . . will not pass away.’ Possibly a child was born shortly before the Discourse who was to live 125 years. Probably not--but who can say it's impossible? Let's say the year of the Discourse was about 26 AD. So the last member of 'this generation' would pass away in 151 AD or so.

‘ . . . truly did not reach their final form until the 80's.’ Aren’t you forgetting the ‘folksay’ of the Christian community? Stories of Jesus’ ministry and life were told more often orally than not, even after the NT stuff were basically all written. Had the written stuff diverged significantly from the oral stuff, angry Christians would have give the writers heck.


A few times phrases like, ‘I experienced beliefs,’ appeared in this thread. Wow, I thought one held or had beliefs. Beliefs themselves are not experiences. I believe JFK was assassinated, but I never was an eyewitness. I may believe Tom Sawyer chicaned several kids into whitewashing a fence, but that’s fictional.

Your incomplete understanding of our religion is amusing. Beliefs may be experienced, and experiences may be believed. Try to do more than scratch the surface of the religion you are criticizing -- people might take you a little more seriously if you do. As it is, you cast scorn and aspersions on things you clearly don't understand. That says more about you than it does us.

I don’t completely understand this thread, though I suspect techmage and Durthorin are mistaken that they understand better than most people what Jesus said.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please.

Arion

[Durthorin]

I did not think you were saying that, it just came across that way (I did say "seems").

In the end, though, doesn't your view reduce (or find its origin in) relativism? Or are you just saying that what matters is what you personally find fulfilling?

I guess what I am asking is this:

Would you try to be a "missionary" for Wicca, leading other people into it who have not previously expressed an interest, or do you just let people go their own way?

In most traditions, an initiate is required to teach those who wish to be taught.. or at least assist them in finding a teacher. What we do not have in general is a belief that we must "Spread the Good News", we are not an evangelical faith that requires that. if a person asks us, we speak and we answer their questions. If they express an interest we help them, but as to being a missionary.. someone once said that a good an honorable life lived in silence an faith is the best witness. if knowing I'm Pagan leads someone to ask me how, then I am alright with that.

[Augustine2004]

While I can't speak for Dur, I can assure you that being a "missionary" for Wicca is antithetical to the practice of the religion. We don't get bonus points for conversion, neither do we seek to impose our beliefs and practices on those who have no interest or desire.

Case in point: I'm considering taking on a new apprentice, and far from extolling the virtues and power that can be found in Wicca, I'm doing my best to communicate the level of commitment and hard work required for any true progress to be made to her. Only after I'm satisfied that she's aware of what will be required and I'm certain that she is willing to follow through with the long arduous path that she will have to follow will I begin instruction. Once that commitment is made, however, I will do my utmost to pass along to her every bit of wisdom, lore, and dedication that I have at my disposal.

Why did she become interested in the first place? Sheer curosity? Or your winsome personality. Maybe a combination.

What can you do because you're a Wiccan that non-Wicca people can't do?

[Augustine2004]

37818 ,

The big difference between Matthew and Luke is when the events detailed occur relative to the signs. In Matthew the signs occur first. In Luke the events occur before the signs. This means we are to treat these as separate events. Now Luke does contain some end times information but it is given after a statement which changes the time frame. This would be the time of the Gentiles.

One thing that makes the Bible hard for the modern reader to understand is that the people in the first century were much less concerned with the chronology of events. If item A came after item B in a book, we assume that that's the temporal order: What item A is concerned about comes after what item B is concerned about. On the other hand the first century would look for explicit timing signals. E.g. item A was 'in the sixteenth year of Surthoran's reign.' A book's arrangement may not be principally temporal, but done to achieve some didactic purpose.

[tmancour]

Why did she become interested in the first place? Sheer curosity? Or your winsome personality. Maybe a combination.

Actually, she was referred to me by my Christian sister-in-law because she was interested and reading some . . . misguided books about the religion. I've been working with her for a month or so, now, and she seems to be taking to the material enough for me to seriously consider making the commitment to teach her. It's not something I sought out. Taking an apprentice is a profound responsibility for the teacher, and not one that's entered into lightly. But when the Gods put someone in your path in need of your help, you do as they bid. It's part of my sacred duty to pass along what I've learned to the next generation. It can also be a colossal pain in the butt . . . but whom am I to second guess the gods?

What can you do because you're a Wiccan that non-Wicca people can't do?

Wiccanings, among other things. Wiccan handfastings. Wiccan initiations. Is that what you mean?


Arion

[Augustine2004]

Wiccanings,

Is this OK? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccaning

Wiccan handfastings.

Is this OK? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handfasting

[Augustine2004]

This demonstrates your incomplete understanding of the role of Initiation in the Neo-Pagan traditions. Firstly, the ceremony is not what imparts individual and personal powers, no more than taking a test for a black belt in karate confers upon you the "powers" of a black belt -- it is the long period of intense study, introspection, and spiritual discipline that does so. An Initiation ceremony completes that study and, when properly done, can reveal insights and benefits to the Initiated that cannot be easily (some say ever) communicated through words; it is the culmination of a Mystery, that is, something that must be experienced in order to be known. Since Initiation in our traditions implies that level of dedication, we naturally confer upon it a level of reverence that Christians often reserve for sacraments.

Language alone is not adequate for understanding. An alien visitor to earth may have to be shown a tree before he understands (more or less anyway) what is meant by the word tree. I may indeed not understand Wicca, but I don’t feel motivated to, except I may ask questions out of curiosity. Just what do you get out of it? Do you gain powers and if so what, specifically?

Are you just as offended by the capitalization and mystic significance of Baptism?

What!? I wasn’t offended by your capitalization of initiation. And I don’t capitalize baptism as a rule, except when it’s the first word of a sentence.

Yes, Christianity has the Bible as a textbook and/or handbook. Sixteen odd different versions, open to radical and occult interpretations, arguments, conflicts, disagreements, and outright dishonesty. It's "open" to all sorts of things -- except a concise, easy-to-understand inarguable "truth".

‘Truth,’ with the quotation marks . . . hmmm. I don’t want that if the real truth is hard to understand in whole or to accept.

Wiccan practice emphasizes the importance of personal experience and direct revelation -- we don't need 2000 year old wise men to tell us how to live. We're perfectly capable of figuring that out for ourselves.

Wow, Wiccans must have attained an uniformity of life that even Christian communities don’t have.

And lightly sharing such wisdom with those unprepared to accept or appreciate it would run counter to the dictates of wisdom. It's not that we're finicky -- we just have standards.

But a heavy dose of wisdom is OK? Or did you misswrite?

A problem of yours may be that the difficult-obscure parts of the Bible caused you to leave Christianity, even though its major messages are understandable. Another problem may be that you’re too much of a ‘direct experience’ guy. To be sure reading a war novel like The Red Badge of Courage or a war movie like Platoon is not the same as experiencing a war battle itself. Note what I said about the inadequacy of language elsewhere.

And your analogy to vampires is just insulting.

Sorry, I regret that.

Our "special" powers are the result of years of study and dedication and practice. We earn them and suffer for them.

That reminds me of accounts of Einstein’s struggle to perfect and complete General Relativity. I’m not sure to what extent that is analogous, though.

Beliefs may be experienced, and experiences may be believed.

As to the last part of that sentence, believe Mary Magdalene’s encounter with the ‘gardener.’ Or Paul’s encounter with our Lord Jesus Christ. As to the first part, consider the commandment ‘Thou shalt not misrepresent.’ Would you say you experience that? If you say yes, explain please.

Explain the logic underlying that conclusion, please.

Have you not read Dizzle’s preterist website yet? If you have, is there a list of what you consider to be specific inadequacies and outright errors?


I apologize for whatever unwarranted scorn and satire occurred in a certain post.

[tmancour]

Is this OK? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiccaning

Is this OK? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handfasting

Yes, those are basic explanations of the rites. There are other sacraments as well, but those are some of the basics.

Arion

[franktalk]

Durthorin ,

I missed your post when I checked the thread. So sorry about the delay in responding.

I am surprised that many more do not leave Christianity. The Church is split and doctrines go all over the place. In this mixed up soup I could see that people could feel lost and unable to cling to a solid foundation. God is very silent unless you ask for the things He has directed and if it His will. Remember we are to come to Him through faith. It is not the logical head that will guide us. So all arguments are really worthless. But I think from your point of view you found a better view of the world from another soul. This is understandable.

Now did the arguments presented to you make sense because of beliefs you already had or did the arguments cause new views of the world? This is important because any world view you possess is like a self fulfilling prophecy. It has already set the stage for you to accept or reject ideas based on some pre-agreed upon precepts. The real war over man's soul occurs inside that area of man that filters or focuses thought. It is here the battle rages. But most do not even see a need to examine their world view. Once in place if it functions to keep a person on some acceptable path in society then most will not examine something that is apparently working. But from my point of view we should examine our basic views and see if they serve us as well as they should.

[tmancour]

Language alone is not adequate for understanding. An alien visitor to earth may have to be shown a tree before he understands (more or less anyway) what is meant by the word tree. I may indeed not understand Wicca, but I don’t feel motivated to, except I may ask questions out of curiosity. Just what do you get out of it? Do you gain powers and if so what, specifically?

Understood. That language is inadequate for understanding, especially the subtle and deeply personal elements present within a Mystery tradition, is implicit. That's why we are reluctant, if not indeed bound by oath, to discuss certain elements of rite and ritual with those who have not similarly been prepared. Even then it's difficult to communicate something for which there are no adequate words.

What do I get out of it? A happier life, a more complete and thorough understanding of myself and my relation to the rest of the universe, peace of mind and heart, and a joyfulness in life and existance I haven't found elsewhere.

What!? I wasn’t offended by your capitalization of initiation. And I don’t capitalize baptism as a rule, except when it’s the first word of a sentence.

My bad. I implied you were taking exception to the capitalization of the sacrament, which in this context was perfectly appropriate and displayed the proper respect and reverence for the rite.

‘Truth,’ with the quotation marks . . . hmmm. I don’t want that if the real truth is hard to understand in whole or to accept.

Me either. Which is why I left Christianity.

Wow, Wiccans must have attained an uniformity of life that even Christian communities don’t have. But a heavy dose of wisdom is OK? Or did you misswrite?

No, Wisdom is born out of experience, introspection, and personal revelation. There's no disconnect there. And Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans are anything but uniform. Our personal sacred texts are known as Books of Shadows, as every person's shadow is unique to them. In addition, some, such as myself, keep a personal Book of Wisdom to contain those nuggets of insight we find particularly useful or worthy of study.

A problem of yours may be that the difficult-obscure parts of the Bible caused you to leave Christianity, even though its major messages are understandable. Another problem may be that you’re too much of a ‘direct experience’ guy. To be sure reading a war novel like The Red Badge of Courage or a war movie like Platoon is not the same as experiencing a war battle itself. Note what I said about the inadequacy of language elsewhere.

I understand what you're saying, but it wasn't the obscure parts of the Bible that caused me to leave Christianity -- it was the failure of Christians to put into practice the lessons and values they professed. Blatant hypocrisy was an issue. The demonization of women and sexuality was another. The insistance on a radical monotheistic godhead was another. And the imposition of tribal cultural mores that were not my ancestors was another. It's actually a pretty long list. I've read nine different versions of the Bible from cover to cover, under accomplished scholars, with a better-than-average understanding of basic Semetic tribal religion for context. All of that and I still can't accept Jehovah as the one true and only deity, especially when that reduces the Goddess. Downplaying Her importance and essential nature was a deal-breaker to me.

Sorry, I regret that.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I don't mind that witches and Wiccans and druids and such are considered a little spooky, but equating them with outright evil or life-stealing creatures of myth and legend runs counter to our religion. We practice a religion that celebrates and promotes life, not death.

That reminds me of accounts of Einstein’s struggle to perfect and complete General Relativity. I’m not sure to what extent that is analogous, though.

A better analogy would be to compare Wiccan practice with mastering a martial art, although instead of breaking boards and mastering the body we try to hone our minds, our spiritual practice, and our relationship to the rest of the universe through ritual, meditation, introspection, study, and direct experience with the divine. Traditionally it takes a year of study to take even the very simplest Initiations, and for most it takes much longer. And like martial arts or other spiritual disciplines, you get out of it what you put into it. Consider, what if you had to spend a year in aescetic devotion before you could be Baptized and converted to Christianity and be known as a Christian? Neo-Paganism in general is an orthopraxic collection of traditions that puts much more emphasis on right-action than right belief, and right-action doesn't appear overnight. The magick we practice is a complex and subtle art designed to bring us closer to our world, our deities, and our ancestors, and the phenomenology surrounding the successful practice is often a slow and arduous journey.

As to the last part of that sentence, believe Mary Magdalene’s encounter with the ‘gardener.’ Or Paul’s encounter with our Lord Jesus Christ. As to the first part, consider the commandment ‘Thou shalt not misrepresent.’ Would you say you experience that? If you say yes, explain please.

Experience and belief are two compliamentary componants of religion and spirituality. For example, Hinduism, like Neo-Paganism, isn't as concerned about what you believe as it is what you practice, whereas Islam and Christianity place far more emphasis in belief, as a promotion of Faith ("absolute belief without proof"). I hesitate to even use the term "faith" when describing the Neo-Pagan traditions, because Faith, as such, isn't as important to us. Most of the Neo-Pagan traditions rely on Wisdom ("The art and science of doing the right thing at the right time") in one form or another as a standard of devotion. I have experienced the power of belief when I was a Christian, and it was potent. I cannot deny that there is an element of belief implicit in magical ritual and practice, of course, but it is less a belief in the power of divinity and more a belief and trust in your own innate power to change the universe. True, some pagans conflate the two, but in the end we tend to judge each other based more on who walks the walk, not who talks the talk. Within the context of belief and experience, of course, is an element of truthfulness that cannot be denied. One of the hardest things for a first-year student to do, for example, is jettison their preconceptions about their own lives and accept what is, not what they pretend to be. Like I said, it's a subtle and complex thing.

Have you not read Dizzle’s preterist website yet? If you have, is there a list of what you consider to be specific inadequacies and outright errors?

I honestly don't concern myself overmuch with inadequacies and errors of a sacred text I haven't adopted as my own, That being said, most of those I consider good pagan theologians (and I would count both technomage and Durthorin high in that group) have studied Christianity, Christian sacred texts and their historical context far more exhaustively than the vast majority of Christians. One of the best pagan theologians I know is fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek and can quote passages of Christian scripture and explain their context in ways a seminarian would envy.

When it comes down to it, I've rejected the Bible as my personal sacred text because I know that it is far more haigiography than history, and not even the history of a people who are my ancestors. Having also studied the sacred texts of all the other major religions and many minor ones, as well as studying the way the religion of the ancient Hebrews and the Roman era Jews evolved from syncretic elements across the ancient near and middle east, I can find nothing inherently superior to the wisdom and teachings in the Bible -- indeed, I find much of it contradictory and self-referential. While I can appreciate it as haigiography, lore, wisdom, oral history, legend, etc., I don't see any compelling reason to accept it as the Word of God (especially when the biggest argument for accepting it as such is that the Bible tells you to do so). I don't feel a male-dominated monotheism is the best religion for me and my family, and I'm not thrilled that it dominates the civil life of the West so thoroughly. Most importantly, to put it in Christian terms, I was personally "called" to service of the Goddess and had several very negative experiences with that Jehovah chap. The combination of issues caused me to leave the Christian faith forever and find a new, happier home in Wicca, druidism, and Neo-Paganism.

I apologize for whatever unwarranted scorn and satire occurred in a certain post.

I apprecate and accept your apology, and further I apologize I got my hackles up. Wisdom dictates that I respond civily in such situations, and I fear my reserve was troubled. Thanks for your questions, and I'd be happy to answer whatever others I might.

Blessed Be,

Arion the Blue

[Augustine2004]

I am surprised that many more do not leave Christianity.

Not sure what you mean by 'Christianity.' I assume here that I do have a good idea what you have in mind. The truth is, 99% of Christianity is something that has to be disposed in the sewer.

Remember we are to come to Him through faith. It is not the logical head that will guide us. So all arguments are really worthless.

What's the point of having the Bible, of reading it!? What are we supposed to do to fulfill the Great Commission!? Come up to someone and do some tap-dancing, grinning like an idiot?

But I think from your point of view you found a better view of the world from another soul. This is understandable.

In his old age King Solomon found a better view of the world from his foreign wives (Chapter 11, 1 Kings, verses 1-13). That is understandable.

Now did the arguments presented to you make sense because of beliefs you already had or did the arguments cause new views of the world? This is important because any world view you possess is like a self fulfilling prophecy. It has already set the stage for you to accept or reject ideas based on some pre-agreed upon precepts. The real war over man's soul occurs inside that area of man that filters or focuses thought. It is here the battle rages. But most do not even see a need to examine their world view. Once in place if it functions to keep a person on some acceptable path in society then most will not examine something that is apparently working. But from my point of view we should examine our basic views and see if they serve us as well as they should.

I'm not sure whether you do realize that personal philosophies (or what you would call persons' viewpoints, I suppose) do evolve, especially when people experience something that challenges their beliefs.

[Durthorin]

....
Now did the arguments presented to you make sense because of beliefs you already had or did the arguments cause new views of the world? This is important because any world view you possess is like a self fulfilling prophecy. It has already set the stage for you to accept or reject ideas based on some pre-agreed upon precepts. The real war over man's soul occurs inside that area of man that filters or focuses thought. It is here the battle rages. But most do not even see a need to examine their world view. Once in place if it functions to keep a person on some acceptable path in society then most will not examine something that is apparently working. But from my point of view we should examine our basic views and see if they serve us as well as they should.

Cognative desonance. Things that did not fit to me.. The more I looked at the world to borrow a phrase the more I found within it the Goddess. I had no name for her nor a theology to wrap around it.. to see people I knew that were good people damned becasuse they could not believe while others no matter what their karma were forgiven. Many things along those lines. Were they self fufiling prophecy? I think not, had I not found a name I would not have known the structure that was Wicca. I would perhaps been a Christian with a bent towards the mystic but I would have I think remained a Christain. The triggering moment for me was what some would call a direct experiance of diety. As I wrestled with my crisis of faith I called out to the God of Earth or the Queen of Heavan.. The Goddess answered and in that answer I found peace. That peace has I hope shown in my life and my interactions with others.

When I started down this path the first thing demanded of me was the reexamination of all my views and preconceptions. If nothing else, Wicca and other Pagan faiths demand of their adherants a willingness to turn a bright light and allow others to turn a bright light on the what we hide within us. That is why Initation is so intensly personal ... by the time you have reached a certain level you are dismantling your own life and your own pysch. If you are angry, you must examine why.. you must understand why. What planted the spark, but wood is within you that burns, An do you want that wood in your life. I think along my path one thing that stands out to me is the study and self examination.. the need to be willing to discard those facets of personal self delusion to walk forward. To see what you are, not what you wish you were.

[Augustine2004]

Me either. Which is why I left Christianity.

What!? I wrote, ‘I don’t want that if the real truth is hard to understand in whole or to accept.’ I now assume you didn’t misread that. You appear to contradict yourself. In an earlier post, you said something to the effect that truth should be easy to recognize and understand. But your preparations for the Initiations are supposed to be difficult and labor-intensive. You could be one confused dude.

No, Wisdom is born out of experience, introspection, and personal revelation.

But, you still need teachers to function as midwives or obstetricans, so to speak? I would agree people need to be taught to think for themselves and to be given ways to look for truth and test it.

There's no disconnect there.

You lost me.

I understand what you're saying, but it wasn't the obscure parts of the Bible that caused me to leave Christianity -- it was the failure of Christians to put into practice the lessons and values they professed. Blatant hypocrisy was an issue.

Ah, so people’s evil natures made you leave Christianity. The Bible is full of accounts of people doing evil. Why didn’t you leave the first time you read about David’s murder of Uriah? And people are still evil. I dunno about the Wicca people, are they really all good? Wow.

The demonization of women and sexuality was another.

I’m not sure to what you refer. Women are better treated in Christianity than in other religions, at least they are supposed to be.

The insistance on a radical monotheistic godhead was another.

’Radical’? Maybe you used that adjective as an accentator, not as a restrictor. If you did mean the latter, what’s an example of a monotheistic godhead that’s not radical?

And the imposition of tribal cultural mores that were not my ancestors was another.

wow, so you freely murder; covet; bear false witnesses; expropriate property; etc.

It's actually a pretty long list.

List of what, the tribal mores?

Downplaying Her importance and essential nature was a deal-breaker to me.

What counts is the truth, yes? If God is indeed the God of the Bible, are you still going to pout that a certain something that is female was left out, even if it’s not God.

I don’t know what your experiences are, but what you think they are is not necessarily the truth. Nor can your feelings have anything to do with the truth. If one says that he feels that this or that is true, that is meaningless in itself. To be sure, when one comes to understand something, that moment can engender a great feeling. Note, however, the temporal sequence: understanding leads to feeling. You think feeling leads to understanding. No, it cannot be. How can you feel about anything BEFORE you experience it?

To be sure, one may awake feeling great or bad, but that has nothing to do with understanding or finding truth.

Thank you, I appreciate that. I don't mind that witches and Wiccans and druids and such are considered a little spooky, but equating them with outright evil or life-stealing creatures of myth and legend runs counter to our religion. We practice a religion that celebrates and promotes life, not death.

It does look like my ideas were wrong, but why go around calling yourselves witches and mages? It looks like terrible PR to me.

A better analogy would be to compare Wiccan practice with mastering a martial art, although instead of breaking boards and mastering the body we try to hone our minds, our spiritual practice, and our relationship to the rest of the universe through ritual, meditation, introspection, study, and direct experience with the divine. Traditionally it takes a year of study to take even the very simplest Initiations, and for most it takes much longer. And like martial arts or other spiritual disciplines, you get out of it what you put into it. Consider, what if you had to spend a year in aescetic devotion before you could be Baptized and converted to Christianity and be known as a Christian? Neo-Paganism in general is an orthopraxic collection of traditions that puts much more emphasis on right-action than right belief, and right-action doesn't appear overnight. The magick we practice is a complex and subtle art designed to bring us closer to our world, our deities, and our ancestors, and the phenomenology surrounding the successful practice is often a slow and arduous journey.

Orthopraxic? = ‘straight practice’? Sounds like Buddhism: right living. Who’s to know what is ethical and not without something like the Bible to tell ya!?

Hitler perhaps felt it was right to exterminate Jews. Most of the world disagreed with him. Which side is right?

Experience and belief are two compliamentary componants of religion and spirituality.

Many people calling themselves Christian do practice what may be called feeling-based religion.

For example, Hinduism, like Neo-Paganism, isn't as concerned about what you believe as it is what you practice, whereas Islam and Christianity place far more emphasis in belief, as a promotion of Faith ("absolute belief without proof").

No, in Judaism and Christianity, practice should match what the Bible says should be ethical behavior. And, your active beliefs are in some sense your acts also.

I honestly don't concern myself overmuch with inadequacies and errors of a sacred text I haven't adopted as my own, That being said, most of those I consider good pagan theologians (and I would count both technomage and Durthorin high in that group) have studied Christianity, Christian sacred texts and their historical context far more exhaustively than the vast majority of Christians. One of the best pagan theologians I know is fluent in Hebrew, Aramaic, Latin and Greek and can quote passages of Christian scripture and explain their context in ways a seminarian would envy.

Why not have one of those erudite Wiccans come here and show Dizzle one thing or two?

When it comes down to it, I've rejected the Bible as my personal sacred text because I know that it is far more haigiography than history

Uncertain what you mean. ‘More fictional than true history’?

and not even the history of a people who are my ancestors.

Adam and Eve aren’t even your ancestors?

Having also studied the sacred texts of all the other major religions and many minor ones, as well as studying the way the religion of the ancient Hebrews and the Roman era Jews evolved from syncretic elements across the ancient near and middle east, I can find nothing inherently superior to the wisdom and teachings in the Bible -- indeed, I find much of it contradictory and self-referential.

Seems to me you misswrote. Anyway, what’s your favorite contradiction? Note, a true contradiction is one that can be logically put in the form: A and not A (A is a proposition).

While I can appreciate it as haigiography, lore, wisdom, oral history, legend, etc., I don't see any compelling reason to accept it as the Word of God (especially when the biggest argument for accepting it as such is that the Bible tells you to do so).

I don’t see any compelling reason to accept Wicca as the way to Truth. My feelings be damned.

I don't feel a male-dominated monotheism is the best religion for me and my family, and I'm not thrilled that it dominates the civil life of the West so thoroughly. Most importantly, to put it in Christian terms, I was personally "called" to service of the Goddess and had several very negative experiences with that Jehovah chap. The combination of issues caused me to leave the Christian faith forever and find a new, happier home in Wicca, druidism, and Neo-Paganism.

The world was never more than ½ Christian. Far less so in fact. People profess themselves to be Christian, but as you would put it, they don’t walk the walk . . . I still suspect you misunderstood the Bible.

[franktalk]

Durthorin ,

Thanks for your response.

I was buried in science at a young age and stayed there for most of my life. Only after studying particle physics in my fifties did I see a magical world. One that did not fit naturalism or determinism. When I studied light it became clear that the world is not what I thought it was. This started me to wonder about all of the things in my life that I assumed to be true. So I started to study the foundations of all of the sciences. I found each area of science founded on questions not answers. So I cast off naturalism as a foundation and started over. I studied the major religions of the world and came to the Bible which had the nerve to prophesy about the future. After a bunch of Biblical history I came to believe that the prophets did write about the future and it did come true. Knowing a thing about time I decided that the message came from outside of this universe. That is when I looked at various churches and found none that I liked. They all read extra stuff into scripture in one flavor or another. So then I studied each verse and how each should be read. I came to believe that the closer I read in an almost literal sense the verses did not step on each other. I figured if God had a hand in writing the Bible and also make Adam then the message should be understood by His designed man. I now have faith that that is true. I have other reasons to have faith that occurred after I believed.

So in my case I always wanted to know how everything worked. The world and the universe are just things to figure out. Once I realized that there was another dimension, a spirit world then my quest was to find out all about it. So this is how became a Christian. That quest lead me to faith in the message in the Bible. It did not lead me to man's interpretation of the Bible. I reject much of it and believe there are major sections of scripture that are still unknown. Anyone who says they know it all is a fool.

So it seems my quest was for knowledge and understanding of the workings of the world. Your quest was more internal. A study of yourself and what you are. Am I right?