the truth about hell?

[shadowman]

http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html



please read this.

What do you think about what it says?

[Aidios]

Regarding their first point (the soul sleep discussion), I think a good case can be made either way. JP Holding's written a good article about it.

As for the annihilationism, I agree with them that eternal torment is not taught in the Bible (though they rely too much on emotion for their arguments), but as opposed to their view, I believe that the lake of fire will eventually cease and that those who were in it will finally be released. As for the article, I don't think it's the best defense of their position that I've seen; they make some good points in their arguments, but some of them are flawed -- for instance, they're inconsistent and inaccurate in their treatment of the word aionios.

However, all three views can be supported from the Bible, and since all of them suggest some kind of terrible judgment (aside from a few heretics who lie outside of the mainstream of all three), it's much better to worry first about avoiding the judgment and then to try to understand its nature afterwards. Furthermore, I think it's better to assume the worst until we have good reason to think otherwise.

[Tladatsi]

http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html



please read this.

What do you think about what it says?

I have said the same thing myself.

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=72773

as have you...

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=87490

Of course none of this is original, it is well known in academic circles and of course it is what the Tanakh actually says.

[gharfish]

What does the Tanakh have to say of it ?

EDIT/ add: You believe that the lost in sheol (the place, not the grave) are not resurrected as per Rev. 20: 12, 13 ?

[mickiel]

More and more of humanity are beginning to see this " Hell that has been preached to us", in a very different manner. The most stunning revelation that Got a hold of me is this: As I began to reconize the true attributes of God, as expressed by the Fruits of the Spirit, something was not adding up. I knew something was wrong with this picture. I don't think the bible is wrong, I think interpitation of it has been wrong, and certain translations of the bible have been wrong. Because the Hell that most men preach, is not even in the original manuscripts of the bible, it was added by translators, who I am sure thought their translation was fitting.

The meaning of Hell has been strecthed to mean the Lake of Fire. I don't think thats correct. I think more is unknown about this Lake, than Known. This Lake could be and perhaps is, far different in its intent than we can understand.

But listen, when Hell has become a backbone of a religions gospel, that religion cannot remove it without dismantleing their entire belief. And sadly, many are just not able to do it. They depend on it, NEED it in their belief. Need it as their motivation to serve God. Need it as a reason to be inspired to keep believing. Need the fear of it as a backround for their mission in life, preservation of their life.

So really, the gates of Hell HAS prevailed in many peoples belief, in many churchs, they need its prevalence to survive.

Peace.

[Bill the Cat]

http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html



please read this.

What do you think about what it says?

Absolute tripe in my opinion. Eisegesis at its finest! I may or may not write a rebuttal to this article if I feel like it. Time is precious and such articles deserve a response, so I just may respond when I get the time...

[mickiel]

The gospel of hell being an eternity of preserved pain with the eternal purpose of continual misery being inflicted with no end, is simply a " Flat Tire Gospel", which instead of fixing, believers in it have chosen to ride on it until they get where they think their belief is taking them.

Examine what the belief is predestining for sinful humanity. And what it really teachs about the Conciousness of God. It teachs that God will be conscious of eternal affliction , and be eternally satisfied with it. Eternally be at Peace with it, and eternally derive Joy from it. It teachs that God believes that to be eternally a Kind and Gentle thing to do, and he will eternally Longsuffer with it.

What God has done, and will do, must match every fruit of his Spirit, and that must be the imputus of how we determine or dare to interpit the results of his plans for humanity.

Think on this, as you examine the belief in this most unusual judgement of how we consider God to be.

Peace.

[shadowmaster]

http://www.thercg.org/books/ttah.html



please read this.

What do you think about what it says?

Your view must be wrong because this is pretty much what Shadowmaster (the non-theologian) has understood the bible to mean and he never understood where the notion of the God of the eternal torture chamber came from.

If that is what was meant, then Jesus and the apostles could easily have said so directly without leaving the impression that it is the death of the soul (IHHO).

and what is this "shadowman" stuff, huh?



shadowmaster

[Tladatsi]

Absolute tripe in my opinion. Eisegesis at its finest! I may or may not write a rebuttal to this article if I feel like it. Time is precious and such articles deserve a response, so I just may respond when I get the time...

Consider Gen 37:35where Jacob says "'No, I shall go down to Sheol to my son, mourning.' Thus his father wept for him.” Again in Gen 42:38 he says again “My son will not go down with you, for his brother Joseph is dead, and he alone is left of his mother's children. If anything should happen to him, you would bring my gray head down to Sheol in deep sorrow." Certainly Jacob does not believe his son Joseph is burning in hell and that he plans on joining him.

Likewise in 1 Sam 28Saul uses a medium in Endor so he can speak with Samuel. The medium sees a spirit (elohim) rising up from the earth. When Samuel’s ghost realizes what has happened he complains of being "disturbed", as if he were awakened from sleep.

The souls of the sinners are found there too. In Numbers 16,the rebellious levites are consumed by the earth and sent to Sheol alive. In Kings and Chronicles the common phrase to described recently dead kings was he slept with his (fore) fathers, even those kings who "did evil in the eyes of God".

The souls of the dead, saint and sinner alike, are not active but quiescent. In Psalm 115:17it says “The dead cannot sing praises to the Lord, for they have gone into the silence of the grave.” In Psalm 6:5it says “For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?” In Psalm 31:17it says “Don't let me be disgraced, O LORD, for I call out to you for help. Let the wicked be disgraced; let them lie silent in Sheol.”

In Mat 27:52 it describes those who arose from their graves when Jesus rose as "those who slept". Paul uses the same description in 1 Cr 15:20. Paul in 1 Th 4 compares the living with those who were put to sleep, i.e. the dead. Paul tells the Thesselonians that when the Lord descends from heaven, those sleeping (believers) will arise and along with the living (believers) shall meet the Lord in the air (between heaven and earth). The believers who were dead were clearly not in heaven or hell or all of 1 Th 4: 13-18 makes no sense whatsoever.

One of the most ancient expressions of the Christian thought is the Apostles Creed , which says - in part - "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell (katelthonta eis ta katôtata). On the third day he rose again". Between His death on the cross and resurrection Jesus descended into hell to preach to the dead. This story is told in 1 Peter 3:19-20and elipically in 1 Peter 4:6, 2Corinthians 2:14(if Sheol is included in "everyplace"), and Ephesian 4:8-10 (if we take that his ascent is from hell and the captives are the dead). This story has traditionally been described in English as the Harrowing of Hell. It is obviously at odds with the idea of the good going to heaven after death while the evil suffering in eternal hellfire.

[RND/SDA]

One of the most ancient expressions of the Christian thought is the Apostles Creed , which says - in part - "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell (katelthonta eis ta katôtata). On the third day he rose again". Between His death on the cross and resurrection Jesus descended into hell to preach to the dead. This story is told in 1 Peter 3:19-20and elipically in 1 Peter 4:6, 2Corinthians 2:14(if Sheol is included in "everyplace"), and Ephesian 4:8-10 (if we take that his ascent is from hell and the captives are the dead). This story has traditionally been described in English as the Harrowing of Hell. It is obviously at odds with the idea of the good going to heaven after death while the evil suffering in eternal hellfire.

Actually, what the scripture cited (1 Peter 3:19-20) really teaches is that the same Spirit that enabled Jesus to rise from the grave is the same exact Spirit that preached the Gospel in Noah's day:

1 Peter 3:18 ¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Jesus was put to death as living flesh, but made alive (quickened) by the Holy Spirit. We know this verse is referring to the Holy Spirit because of the capitalization of the word Spirit.


1 Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Prison or being in prison is a common metaphor for being in the clutches of sin.

Psa 142:7
Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isa 42:22
But this [is] a people robbed and spoiled; [they are] all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


1 Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Being in sin, that is transgressing the Law of God, is obvious disobedience and yet then, just as it was now, God is longsuffering toward us desiring that no one should perish but all would come to repentance.

What a shame that only 8 souls took God up on His offer.

[carelinks]

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[Tladatsi]

Being in prison may indeed be a metaphor for being in the clutches of sin. However, in the images Paul, Jude, and Peter all use come from the Book on Enoch and the Tanakh where where the souls of the dead sleep beneath the earth. It is there that Jesus preached between His crucifixion according the Paul, Peter, and Jude.

Actually, what the scripture cited (1 Peter 3:19-20) really teaches is that the same Spirit that enabled Jesus to rise from the grave is the same exact Spirit that preached the Gospel in Noah's day:

1 Peter 3:18 ¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Jesus was put to death as living flesh, but made alive (quickened) by the Holy Spirit. We know this verse is referring to the Holy Spirit because of the capitalization of the word Spirit.


1 Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Prison or being in prison is a common metaphor for being in the clutches of sin.

Psa 142:7
Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.

Isa 42:7
To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Isa 42:22
But this [is] a people robbed and spoiled; [they are] all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore.

Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

Mat 25:36
Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.


1 Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Being in sin, that is transgressing the Law of God, is obvious disobedience and yet then, just as it was now, God is longsuffering toward us desiring that no one should perish but all would come to repentance.

What a shame that only 8 souls took God up on His offer.

[RND/SDA]

Being in prison may indeed be a metaphor for being in the clutches of sin. However, in the images Paul, Jude, and Peter all use come from the Book on Enoch and the Tanakh where where the souls of the dead sleep beneath the earth. It is there that Jesus preached between His crucifixion according the Paul, Peter, and Jude.

Actually that is a fairly poor understanding of what the scriptures actually teach. Usually, there is another verse or two that backs up a particular thought or doctrine in the Bible. In that 1 Peter 3:18-20 doesn't have one, I would have to look for another meaning.

1 Pe 3:18 ¶
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1 Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

This is simply saying that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the grave (the Holy Spirit) is the same Spirit that spoke to those in Noah's day. This can be confirmed by reading the following verse.

1 Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Those that were in prison (a clear metaphor for being in sin) were sometimes disobedient, but God was patientduring Hoah's time while he was preparing the ark where only eight souls were saved.

Jesus didn't go back in time and preach to those in hell, Jesus slept in the grave until He was resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

[Tladatsi]

Jesus didn't go back in time and preach to those in hell, Jesus slept in the grave until He was resurrected by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Except that is exactly what the text says.

Apostles Creed says - in part - "He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell (katelthonta eis ta katôtata). On the third day he rose again". Pretty clear.

Peter reports in 1 Peter 3:18-19 that Jesus died and then preached to those in prison.

1 Peter 3:18-19 NLT

Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison.

In Mat 27:52 it describes those who arose from their graves when Jesus rose as "those who slept".

Mat 27:52-53 KJV

And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

So 1) Jesus died, 2) preached to souls in prison between the time He was crucified and rose, 3) rose on the third day, 4) many of those who slept in their graves rose with Jesus on the third day. That is why the story of the other souls raising from the dead with Jesus makes sense, he preached to them in Sheol where He was with them, they were saved because of his preaching, and rose to life just as Jesus did, just as Jesus promised.

This what English speaking Christians have historically called the Harrowing of Hell. It was universally accepted until fairly recently when the conflict between hell being a place of damnation and Jesus spending three days there became a problem. Since there was no "hell" for the early Christians and Jews, all souls simply slept in Sheol, Jesus going to Sheol was not a problem.

[Bill the Cat]

So 1) Jesus died, 2) preached to souls in prison between the time He was crucified and rose, 3) rose on the third day, 4) many of those who slept in their graves rose with Jesus on the third day. That is why the story of the other souls raising from the dead with Jesus makes sense, he preached to them in Sheol where He was with them, they were saved because of his preaching, and rose to life just as Jesus did, just as Jesus promised.

This what English speaking Christians have historically called the Harrowing of Hell. It was universally accepted until fairly recently when the conflict between hell being a place of damnation and Jesus spending three days there became a problem. Since there was no "hell" for the early Christians and Jews, all souls simply slept in Sheol, Jesus going to Sheol was not a problem.

Do you have any evidence for post-mortem salvation other than these few particularly difficult passages? I have read much different interpretations of these verses