Move Away from Islam and Embrace Jesus Christ for your Eternal Salvation

[Dan Zebiri]

Barn,

Jesus Christ is NOT a 'God' by deification, as you would like to implicate!

He is Lord and God because God's eternal word CAME DOWN in the Incarnation, to become a sinless Man.

You do not seem to know how to distinguish between deification versus Incarnation! And they are quite poles apart in meaning.

We do not deify Jesus, but God through his Word, descended to the earth to become a Man.

Why is there proof for the Incarnation? Because Jesus Himself lived it and taught it - EXPLICITLY! We never made THAT UP!

Heres just some of the proof THAT Jesus Christ HIMSELF declared, lived out and taught His divinity to many eye-witnesses :

"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.’"

John 17:1-2

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear HIS VOICE and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

John 5:25-29

"Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.’"

John 11:25-27

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Matthew 18:20

"And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, ‘Why do you question thus in your hearts?’"
Mark 2:8

3] "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it."
John 14:13-14

ONLY GOD can forgive SIns as per:

But Joshua said to the people, ‘You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.’" Joshua 24:19

"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases," Psalm 103:2-3

And JESUS Himself freely forgave peoples' sins (not merely "by God's permission"):

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, ‘Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ ... ‘But that you may know that the Son of man - Jesus Christ, has the AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins’ ..."

Mark 2:5-7,10a

"‘Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.’ And he said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, ‘Who is this, who even forgives sins?’"

Luke 7:47-49

Thomas his disciple and close associate, declared to Jesus Christ : "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" when Christ appeared to Thomas in person after His resurrection.

If Jesus were NOT divine, as you surmise, barn, then WHY did Jesus NOT SCOLD Or Rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus Christ "GOD"!!

Jesus NEVER rebuked anybody for calling Him God or giving him worship!

Barnasha - Point out to us biblical verses where Jesus scolded, rebuked etc His followers for giving Him worship! THAT would be a so-called denial of his divinity!

Regards, Dan.

so then Jesus is *not* your god?



deify means to worship as a god...

the god of abraham is "already" a god (little g) whether or not you deify it

the difference is whether or not you consider it as a god, or as god-like.

some people can worship Lucifer as a god, (hypothetically), therefore Lucifer is a god (little g), but I do not deify Lucifer.

[barnasha]

Barn,
Jesus Christ is NOT a 'God' by deification, as you would like to implicate!

what do you mean "a god by deification"?

To deify something means to consider it as a god. A god is something someone worships.

Either you worship Jesus as a god ("deify") or you don't... right?

[Dan Zebiri]

Nope, and not true at all!

You have never read the latter parts of my explanation! That explained the event of the INCARNATION!

Take issue with THAT! And then you may come to a real & proper understanding of Jesus Christ's incarnation!

Dan.

[barnasha]

To deify something means to consider it as a god. A god is something someone worships.

Either you worship Jesus as a god ("deify") or you don't... right?

Nope, and not true at all!

Is that so?

[AngelDragon]

Hi all,

About more than 1 month ago, mooses started a thread called 'Move away from Christianity' , which I consider to be the height of arrogant gall and blatant cheek on his part..!

While I agree with you, how is this justification for your coming in here and telling followers of Islam what to do? How are you better than this Mooses guy?

I am a Christian, and I think what you are doing is very unChrist-like.

[barnasha]

While I agree with you, how is this justification for your coming in here and telling followers of Islam what to do? How are you better than this Mooses guy?

I am a Christian, and I think what you are doing is very unChrist-like.

We should all note that Jesus wasn't trying to convert anyone to a worldly religion, to become Christian or Jew, to join a religion or organized group - only to become reborn in the spirit, to become simple like little children... no matter how much dogma you have and how much you support it from the bible - if you can't do that, none of it is justifiable in Jesus' name!

[watsup]

While I agree with you, how is this justification for your coming in here and telling followers of Islam what to do? How are you better than this Mooses guy?

I am a Christian, and I think what you are doing is very unChrist-like.

Hi AngelDragon.

a) Christlike or unChristlike and Christian or unChristian to truthfully inform followers of Islam that they absolutely on hell's bound train for being followers of the one and only Satan - the one and only Satan who needed to invent Islam, so as to enable him (the author-controller of Islam) to be presented, regarded and worshipped as Allah?

(On the premise that the word "Allah", is the accurate pre-Islamic term for "God".)

b) True or not true? Such truthful informing of Muslims of this truth will always be brutal to those who regard Islam's allah to be (also) God, and not Satan.

c) True or not true? Persons who profess to be Christians but would want to most considerately leave Muslims to believe that the author-controller of their Islam is (also) God, by their not wanting to have Muslims wake up to this brutal truth that Islam's author-controller has to be ancd could only be Satan - are either:

i) persons who are Muslims pretending to be Christians; and/or are

ii) persons who do not know what Islam really is; and/or are

iii) persons who do not know what God's Christian faith really is; and/or are

iv) persons who are plainly not Christians.

Thank you.

[barnasha]

(On the premise that the word "Allah", is the accurate pre-Islamic term for "God".)

I'm sure you don't represent all the Christ like Arabic speaking Christians, or anyone with a halfway decent education, when you overlook the fact that Allah is the Christian name for God in the Arabic tongue.

You should temper your tongue because it reflects poorly on your character.

[Dan Zebiri]

Absolutely so.

To deify means : to elevate something that is a man/un-divine, into a divinity and into an object of worship.

So, yes, technically you are wrong, barney. The right thing to say is 'You worship the god of Abraham", because the object of your worship is already God. So you do not deify him.

Christians do not worship Christ Jesus because of 'deification' or because we deified Him!

That is, that we so-called elevated the man Jesus Christ into a God - the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is a direction involved in deification - it is from 'Down - Up', ie.from the earth BELOW, and elevated as an object of worship TO the heavens ABOVE.

Jesus Christ Himself declared that He was the living Word of God that DESCENDED ie.He CAME DOWN from the heavens to the Earth.

He Himself declared that His origins were NOT FROM the Earth below, but that HE CAME from the Heavens above!

"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who DESCENDED from heaven: the Son of Man.
[- Jesus Christ ] John 3 v 13.

So, no, we did not deify Jesus Christ and make Him into a God!

But being God's WORD, descended from Heaven - just as he declared, and became a perfect sinless Man and so possessed divine qualities and accepted worship from friends and foes alike!

Thomas his hand-picked disciple and close associate, declared to Jesus Christ : "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" when Christ appeared to Thomas in person after His resurrection.

If Jesus were NOT divine, as you surmise, barn, then WHY did Jesus NOT SCOLD Or Rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus Christ "GOD"!!

Jesus NEVER rebuked anybody for calling Him God or giving him worship!

Barnasha - Point out to us biblical verses where Jesus scolded, rebuked etc His followers for giving Him worship! THAT would be a so-called denial of his divinity!

I have been asking you the above question for many times now, and you have only conveniently ignored this valid question! Why the evasions??

Regards, Dan.

Is that so?

[Dan Zebiri]

And what do you really know of the authentic Jesus' Name, barnasha?

Dan.

[barnasha]

Absolutely so.

how so?

To deify means : to elevate something that is a man/un-divine, into a divinity and into an object of worship.

the word deify has nothing to do with something that is man or 'undivine' as you say:

Merriam-Webster says deify means:

1 a: to make a god of b: to take as an object of worship
2: to glorify as of supreme worth

Do you make a god of Jesus, taking him as an object of worship, or do you not?

If the question is unfair, please state so, but otherwise why do you refuse to respond?

[watsup]

how so?

the word deify has nothing to do with something that is man or 'undivine' as you say:

Merriam-Webster says deify means:

1 a: to make a god of b: to take as an object of worship
2: to glorify as of supreme worth

Do you make a god of Jesus, taking him as an object of worship, or do you not?

If the question is unfair, please state so, but otherwise why do you refuse to respond?

Who was/is the "you" - according to Mark 1:1-11in God's Holy Bible?

Mark 1

1: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
2: As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
3: The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4: John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
5: And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
6: And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey;
7: And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
8: I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
9: And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10: And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

[Dan Zebiri]

Barney,

The question would only be fair IF Jesus Christ was merely a MAN. THEN, deification could be leveled against Christians who 'made the man Jesus into a God'.

It is not 'fair' as you put it, because you fail to take into FULL account WHO Jesus Christ is!

In His own words, Jesus Christ has already declared that He was far from just a mere human being!

Setting aside your disputations about biblical accuracy, lets discuss THE INCARNATION of CHRIST JESUS on its own merits.
(..if we want to discuss SCRIPTURAL ACCURACIES, it belongs to a different thread from THIS thread. I would love to discuss the 'accuracy' of the quranic record of Jesus Christ with you BUT NOT HERE).

So, in Christ Jesus' OWN WORDS and actions and overall ministry, it is quite clear that He proclaimed His divine qualities to His earliest followers.

And this was the thrust of Jesus Saying that ' No one has ascended into heaven, but He who DESCENDED from heaven: the Son of Man ie - Jesus Christ in John 3 v 13.

And juat a sampling of the many such more besides that:

Heres just some of the proof THAT Jesus Christ HIMSELF declared, lived out and taught His divinity to many eye-witnesses :

"When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, ‘Father, the hour has come; glorify thy Son that the Son may glorify thee, since thou hast given him power over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom thou hast given him.’"

John 17:1-2

"Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear HIS VOICE and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."

John 5:25-29

"Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?’ She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world.’"

John 11:25-27

"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Matthew 18:20

"And immediately Jesus, perceiving in his spirit that they thus questioned within themselves, said to them, ‘Why do you question thus in your hearts?’"
Mark 2:8

3] "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I -JESUS- will do it."
John 14:13-14

ONLY GOD can forgive SIns as per:

But Joshua said to the people, ‘You cannot serve the LORD; for he is a holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions or your sins.’" Joshua 24:19

"Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits, who forgives all your iniquity, who heals all your diseases," Psalm 103:2-3

And JESUS Himself freely forgave peoples' sins (not merely "by God's permission"):

And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, ‘My son, your sins are forgiven.’ Now some of the scribes were sitting there, questioning in their hearts, ‘Why does this man speak thus? It is blasphemy! Who can forgive sins but God alone?’ ... ‘But that you may know that the Son of man - Jesus Christ, has the AUTHORITY on earth to forgive sins’ ..."

Mark 2:5-7,10a

"‘Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.’ And he said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, ‘Who is this, who even forgives sins?’"

Luke 7:47-49

Thomas his disciple and close associate, declared to Jesus Christ : "MY LORD AND MY GOD!" when Christ appeared to Thomas in person after His resurrection.

If Jesus were NOT divine, as you surmise, barn, then WHY did Jesus NOT SCOLD Or Rebuke Thomas for calling Jesus Christ "GOD"!!

Jesus NEVER rebuked anybody for calling Him God or giving him worship!

Barnasha - Point out to us biblical verses where Jesus scolded, rebuked etc His followers for giving Him worship! THAT would be a so-called denial of his divinity!

BARNASHA - PLS.ANSWER MY QUESTION ADDRESSED TO YOU ABOVE!

Dan.

how so?



the word deify has nothing to do with something that is man or 'undivine' as you say:

Merriam-Webster says deify means:

1 a: to make a god of b: to take as an object of worship
2: to glorify as of supreme worth

Do you make a god of Jesus, taking him as an object of worship, or do you not?

If the question is unfair, please state so, but otherwise why do you refuse to respond?

[barnasha]

Barney,

The question would only be fair IF Jesus Christ was merely a MAN. THEN, deification could be leveled against Christians who 'made the man Jesus into a God'.

Jesus was a man. The bible says so.

I do not think being a man is "mere".

And just because you think he is some magical godlike thing rather than a human being, (something explicitly discounted by Jesus himself), does not mean it is true.


You are avoiding the fact that you do deify Jesus because you consider him as a god.


That is meaning the of the word deify.

Hopefully your beliefs have not scarred your brain's capacity of using language correctly.

[AngelDragon]

Jesus was a man. The bible says so.

I do not think being a man is "mere".

And just because you think he is some magical godlike thing rather than a human being, (something explicitly discounted by Jesus himself), does not mean it is true.


You are avoiding the fact that you do deify Jesus because you consider him as a god.


That is meaning the of the word deify.

Hopefully your beliefs have not scarred your brain's capacity of using language correctly.

Jesus did not deny His Godhood.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims...claimshub.html

In fact, Jesus said He was God several times.


Jesus told the Samaritan woman that he is the Messiah (Jn 4:25-26)

Jesus affirmed Peter's statement that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mt 16:15-17, see also Mk 8:29-30, Lk 9:20-21)

Jesus told the high priest that he is the Messiah and Son of God (Mk 14:61-62, Mt 26:63-64, Lk 22:70)

The Jews understood that this meant Jesus was equating himself with God: "he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn 5:17-18).

Other places where Jesus equated himself with God:

Jesus told the Jews, "I and the Father are one." (Jn 10:24-38)

Jesus told the disciples, "You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am." (Jn 13:13)

Jesus forgave sins, which only God had the authority to do (Mk 2:5-11, Lk 5:20-24)

Jesus said that he had seen Abraham and that he is eternal: "'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (Jn 8:57-58)

Jesus said that he had seen God, which no one else could do (Jn 6:46)