Pre-mortal existence and the war in Heaven

[JB DoulosChristou]

These verses all interconnect with the previous verses. Is not the word, "thou" speaking of Lucifer of the previous verse in verse 13? Verse 14 is a continuation of verse 13. Isn't the word, "thou" in verse 15 still speaking of Lucifer and that he will be brought down to hell for seeking to exalt himself above the stars of God? Isn't the word, "thee" in verse 16 still speaking of Lucifer after being cast into the pit? I believe these verses are all interconnected and are speaking of the same being mentioned in verse 12.

The problem here is that onefour1 is backing off of the argument he had previously posed. In appealing to the correlated LDS manual covering this passage, he asserted that the text as a whole had a dual referent (the temporal King of Babylon and the "spiritual King of Babylon"), and that while the passage as a whole applied to both referents, individual phrases might apply to one or the other. Thus, on his original account, the passage is about both the Babylonian king and Satan, but the phrase "fallen from heaven" only applies literally to the latter. Hence, I pressed the question as to how, on that same account, one can be sure that ish does not only apply literally to the former.

Now, however, onefour1's account shifts: the sole referent of Isaiah 14:12-16 becomes Satan on his new account. This is very seriously problematic, however: there is a continuity of referent through later verses that indisputably refer to the temporal King of Babylon - see, for instance, Isaiah 14:17-20. Following onefour1's new logic, aren't verses 17, 19, and 20 just as interconnected with verses 12-16 as verse 16 is with verse 12? But verses 17-20 are utterly incoherent if their reference is restricted purely to Satan. Onefour1's argument, then, collapses even more quickly on his new account than it did on his previous one.

Note also that onefour1's points here do not even begin to address any of what I said about Satan not actually being in view here at all. And without a stronger, more exegetically rigorous case for that, onefour1's argument is a castle floating in the clouds.

The earth was created before man was placed on it. My personal belief is that the earth was created prior to the seven days of creation before light was introduced upon it and considered the first day. Since the days of creation could not be counted without the light and the earth existed before the light was introduced, the earth could not have been created in the first day. So the earth could have been around for a long time before the light was introduced upon it. Also it may have taken more time to create the earth than to go through the seven days of creation. That being said, I don't know that there is any reference stating that the war in heaven occurred prior to the creation of the earth.

On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

[RumTumTugger]

CP, since there is no "amen" button yet let this serve as such.

let me second that Amen

[Bill the Cat]

On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

Thanks JB. You beat me to posting the chronology of the BOA account of creation. The missionaries that I asked about this very subject told me they would have to get back to me on it, and they never returned.

[Bill the Cat]

The earth was created before man was placed on it. My personal belief is that the earth was created prior to the seven days of creation before light was introduced upon it and considered the first day. Since the days of creation could not be counted without the light and the earth existed before the light was introduced, the earth could not have been created in the first day. So the earth could have been around for a long time before the light was introduced upon it. Also it may have taken more time to create the earth than to go through the seven days of creation. That being said, I don't know that there is any reference stating that the war in heaven occurred prior to the creation of the earth.

And yet, satan appeared before God in Job despite the result of the supposed "premortal war in heaven" being that there was no more place for him there...

[Sparko]

If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

[JB DoulosChristou]

If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

It sounds like onefour1 is working with a form of gap theory in which the language of Genesis 1 is both local and phenomenal - so, on his interpretation, Genesis 1:3 isn't the creation of light but only its penetration to the surface of this earth (hence his frequent use of the phrase "introduced upon [the earth]").

[onefour1]

The problem here is that onefour1 is backing off of the argument he had previously posed. In appealing to the correlated LDS manual covering this passage, he asserted that the text as a whole had a dual referent (the temporal King of Babylon and the "spiritual King of Babylon"), and that while the passage as a whole applied to both referents, individual phrases might apply to one or the other. Thus, on his original account, the passage is about both the Babylonian king and Satan, but the phrase "fallen from heaven" only applies literally to the latter. Hence, I pressed the question as to how, on that same account, one can be sure that ish does not only apply literally to the former.

Now, however, onefour1's account shifts: the sole referent of Isaiah 14:12-16 becomes Satan on his new account. This is very seriously problematic, however: there is a continuity of referent through later verses that indisputably refer to the temporal King of Babylon - see, for instance, Isaiah 14:17-20. Following onefour1's new logic, aren't verses 17, 19, and 20 just as interconnected with verses 12-16 as verse 16 is with verse 12? But verses 17-20 are utterly incoherent if their reference is restricted purely to Satan. Onefour1's argument, then, collapses even more quickly on his new account than it did on his previous one.

Note also that onefour1's points here do not even begin to address any of what I said about Satan not actually being in view here at all. And without a stronger, more exegetically rigorous case for that, onefour1's argument is a castle floating in the clouds.



On the contrary, the chronology presented in the Book of Abraham seems to suggest that the War in Heaven transpired before the creation of the earth. In Abraham 3, wherein the premortal council is described, the creation of the earth is mentioned in future tense: "we will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell" (Abraham 3:24). Next in sequence in the Book of Abraham, the Father selects the premortal Jesus over the one who became Satan (Abraham 3:27), and so Satan rebels and leads others away with him (Abraham 3:28; cf. Revelation 12:4, 8; Moses 4:3). Only after this do the Gods create the earth (Abraham 4:1ff.), following the template of Genesis 1 - including Genesis 1:1. I know of no text in the uniquely LDS canon that allows for a significant temporal gap between the commencement of the rebellion and the War in Heaven. As Bill noted, then, this does seem to cause a bit of a difficulty in the Book of Abraham chronology - perhaps not insuperable, but one that merits treatment nevertheless.

I am not backing off any argument. The verses I quoted:

Isaiah 14:12-16

12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;

There is a dual reference in the chapter and this is the reason that a parallel with Lucifer is made. But this is not backing off from say that the above scripture is referring to Satan, Lucifer, the Devil. It is referring to him and him alone. Verse 17 also applies to the Satanic reference but from 18, 19, and 20 do not refer to Satan. So JB DoulosChristou is quite mistaken about what I believe about the verse. But JB DoulosChristou doesn't think that any of these verses refer to Satan. He believes that the King of Babylon fell from heaven. But according to JB DoulosChristou, man did not have a pre-mortal existence so how could he fall from heaven? Do you really think this is only referring to the King of Babylon? Was his name Lucifer? To Isaiah, Satan was clearly in view. I don't know how you can't see it.

Abraham 4:1-5

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

Here the earth is created but no light was upon the earth and no light was yet divided to create night and day

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

Here the light is brought upon the earth. This is after the earth was created. This light was divided from darkness which was the beginning of night and day. So the first night and day were after the time God created the earth. This would mean that the 7 days of creation are outside the time when the earth was created. This same logic can be followed in Genesis 1

The only verses in Abraham up to this point that even mentions the war in heaven are:

Abraham 3:27-28

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

The war in heaven certainly could have started before the earth was created, but by the time Lucifer was cast out of heaven into the earth, the earth certainly existed. Otherwise these verses would be false:

Revelation 12:13

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Revelation 12:9

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


We know that Satan, Lucifer the devil was in the garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve. So we know that he had already been cast out of heaven into the earth. He certainly hasn't been back to heaven since, so when do you think he was cast out? The book of Abraham does not contradict any statement I have made and Satan most certainly could have been cast out after the earth had been created.

[onefour1]

Yes, PRAISE GOD for that!



I believe you are unnecessarily and erroneously forcing a continuation where there is none. There is no reason to believe that "the brethren" here are mortal men who WERE angels fighting in Heaven. The point is that Satan is AGAIN overcome by -- what -- the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony. Christ won a victory on the Cross for all who accept Him.



Yup.



Yes, "they" -- the brethren who were accused day and night.



Yes, the brethren who were accused day and night.



Yes, it is not Michael and his angels at this point.



It is, indeed, the brethren who were mentioned in verse 10.



There was no mention of the "accused them day and night" until "the brethren" were mentioned.



Yes, the angels were cast out.



Yes, the "brethren".



Only because you, erroneously, in my opinion, run this all together into one event.



Use?



Certainly



No, it doesn't.



The "brethren", yes.



Nope.



Agreed - they were disembodied spirits, which is why demons try to POSSESS bodies, and angels do not.



Exactly - because they are disembodied spirits.



Nope.



For "the brethren", yes, it certainly is.

So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels". Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb? Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

[onefour1]

And yet, satan appeared before God in Job despite the result of the supposed "premortal war in heaven" being that there was no more place for him there...

Did this occur in heaven?

[onefour1]

If the LDS believe in an endless chain of Gods and their spirit children, then how could there be a time without light? The LDS church believes that the universe and matter have always existed, so previous God's planets would have stars and light would be throughout the universe.

Not saying there wasn't light before the light mentioned in Genesis 1.

[Cow Poke]

So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels".

Correct.

Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb?

You're doing it again... you're mixing it all together.

Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

I really don't see any point in discussing this with you. You are not allowing the Scripture to speak - you are bending it to fit your particular viewpoint.

If this "pre-mortal existence" thing is such an important doctrine, why do you have to work so hard to force it on the scripture? It's a scam, 141, that Smith came up with, along with plural marriages and his bogus claim that God said Emma would be destroyed if she didn't stop opposing his indiscretions.

[Cow Poke]

Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night?

Look, 141....
[10]*And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11]*And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of the lamb had not yet been shed when Satan was cast out of Heaven --- the "brethren" are those who subsequently accepted Christ, and suffered for it.

Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb?

Christ followers.

Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God.

Nobody made that claim.

Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels?

The Bible says it was, so I believe it was, indeed.

It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

That's a bit snitty, 141, and not necessary --- a two year old?

It's talking about two separate events. Satan was cast out of Heaven, along with his followers, and was FURTHER defeated by Christ's sinless death on Calvary's cross. Those who follow CHRIST (the brethren) stand in the victory of Christ's resurrection.

[onefour1]

It sounds like onefour1 is working with a form of gap theory in which the language of Genesis 1 is both local and phenomenal - so, on his interpretation, Genesis 1:3 isn't the creation of light but only its penetration to the surface of this earth (hence his frequent use of the phrase "introduced upon [the earth]").

What I am saying about the light in Genesis 1 is that the Light mentioned in the creation of the first day is not the light of the sun that we see daily. Our sun was not placed in relation to this earth until the 4th day of creation. So my conclusion is that the light of the first day is not our sun. It is another light. I am saying that the earth was not placed in its current location in relation to our current sun, moon, and stars until the 4th day of creation. So if the light of the first day is not our sun, then it must be another source of light. It could be another orb that is a star giving light to it. It could be the light by which God counts his days and nights. The verses in Abraham 3 and II Peter 3:

Abraham 3:4

4 And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob.

2 Peter 3:8

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

These verses tell us that a thousand years are equivalent to a day with the Lord. Abraham 5 tells us:

Abraham 5:13

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

So it is LDS belief that the 7 days of creation were after the Lord's time. For the commandment to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil came after the 7 days of creation. So we believe that the 7 days were 7 thousand years. But the earth was not created within that time frame as stated in an earlier post. It was created before the light was set for the first day and the darkness was divided from the light and called day and night.

[JohnnyP]

So I take it that you do not agree that the "Brethren" are the same as "Michael and his angels". Well, who were the brethren who existed in heaven with who the Satan accused them before God day and night? Who were the brethren who came down and overcame Satan by the blood of the Lamb? Satan certainly wasn't accusing them on earth before God. Who was Satan warring with in heaven? Was it not Michael and his Angels? It may not spell it out in the language of a two year old, but I think it is pretty safe to assume that those with whom he was warring with in heaven were those being accused before God day and night.

These verses may be helpful to compare between men, angels, and Satan:

Zechariah 3:1-2 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Zechariah 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

[onefour1]

Look, 141....
[10]*And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. [11]*And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

The blood of the lamb had not yet been shed when Satan was cast out of Heaven --- the "brethren" are those who subsequently accepted Christ, and suffered for it.



Christ followers.



Nobody made that claim.



The Bible says it was, so I believe it was, indeed.



That's a bit snitty, 141, and not necessary --- a two year old?

It's talking about two separate events. Satan was cast out of Heaven, along with his followers, and was FURTHER defeated by Christ's sinless death on Calvary's cross. Those who follow CHRIST (the brethren) stand in the victory of Christ's resurrection.

Sorry if you thought I was being snitty. What I meant was that not everything is spelled out in scripture in a way that a two year old child could understand it. I think some verses require a lot of contemplation, prayer, and study but the meaning is there.

Regarding those who came before Christ's Atonement, are they not also saved by the blood of the Lamb? We believe that all those who have lived on the earth were in need of the atonement even if they were born before the coming of Christ.