The Resurrection Body

[John Reece]

I just got home from a fourth hospital admission in three months. Being miserably sick focuses the mind on the body. In order to distract my mind, I spent a lot of time thinking about the resurrection body and concluded that I do not well enough understand the scriptures on the subject.

To remedy my lack of understanding, I wonder if I might be permitted to devote a thread to ascertaining, as clearly and accurately as possible, what the scriptures actually say, and do not say, about the resurrection body of Jesus and our resurrection body.

I know this is a very controversial and hotly debated subject, but I hope that this thread can be kept clear of the controversy.

I also hope that I’m not opening the thread too prematurely, in terms of my present health and strength. I’m a long way from being up to par and will have to go rather slowly for a while. But this has been so much on my mind, and I wanted to check back in after having been gone for nearly a week.

Blessings to all,

John

[Blake Reas]

Yesterday @ 10:54 PM post located here
John Reece:

I just got home from a fourth hospital admission in three months. Being miserably sick focuses the mind on the body. In order to distract my mind, I spent a lot of time thinking about the resurrection body and concluded that I do not well enough understand the scriptures on the subject.

To remedy my lack of understanding, I wonder if I might be permitted to devote a thread to ascertaining, as clearly and accurately as possible, what the scriptures actually say, and do not say, about the resurrection body of Jesus and our resurrection body.

I know this is a very controversial and hotly debated subject, but I hope that this thread can be kept clear of the controversy.

I also hope that I’m not opening the thread too prematurely, in terms of my present health and strength. I’m a long way from being up to par and will have to go rather slowly for a while. But this has been so much on my mind, and I wanted to check back in after having been gone for nearly a week.

Blessings to all,

John

I will post a little later but until then I am praying for you. Don't forget that in Christ we have hope of Glory.

Blake

[Dee Dee Warren]

John dear friend, I hope that I may be able to contribute something....

[GrayPilgrim]

I'm archiving this thread and hope that this thread will help us all to rightly think on this issue. I pray that the Lord brings healing to your body.

[Dee Dee Warren]

John I find it interesting that you did say the nature of Christ's resurrection body and ours. I find it so because there you seem to acknowledge that our resurrection will be like Christ's. Christ's resurrection was physical... I think that is where we should start. If you do believe that ours is like Christ's, if we can correctly hash through Christ's, that solves the other by default.

[John Reece]

Today @ 05:37 AM post located here
Dee Dee Warren:

John I find it interesting that you did say the nature of Christ's resurrection body and ours. I find it so because there you seem to acknowledge that our resurrection will be like Christ's. Christ's resurrection was physical... I think that is where we should start. If you do believe that ours is like Christ's, if we can correctly hash through Christ's, that solves the other by default.

Dear Dee Dee,

I'm at a loss to know how to respond to your post.

I proposed an objective examination of the biblical texts to try to ascertain just what they say and do not say on the subject of Christ’s resurrection body and our resurrection body.

I neither acknowledged nor denied anything about how Christ’s resurrection body relates to our resurrection body. You read into my words what you wanted to see therein, not what I said or meant.

I did intend to start with Christ’s resurrection body, but only because it comes first in the scriptures – not because of any assumption about how His relates to ours.

I am a guest in your house. If this is too touchy a subject for me to pursue on TWeb without being pushed into positions the scriptures have not led me into, I’m quite willing to back off and drop it.

Blessings,

John

[Dee Dee Warren]

Today @ 07:06 AM post located here
John Reece:



Dear Dee Dee,

I'm at a loss to know how to respond to your post.

I proposed an objective examination of the biblical texts to try to ascertain just what they say and do not say on the subject of Christ’s resurrection body and our resurrection body.

I neither acknowledged nor denied anything about how Christ’s resurrection body relates to our resurrection body. You read into my words what you wanted to see therein, not what I said or meant.

My apologies then, I certainly do not wish to put words in your mouth. I am glad you cleared up my misunderstanding.

I did intend to start with Christ’s resurrection body, but only because it comes first in the scriptures – not because of any assumption about how His relates to ours.

Okay no problem. See I am in the legal field, what I was attempting to do was like what is done in court cases.... in the beginning, the parties set at first what they can all agree upon so that time is not given to proven things that do not need to be. If this is not one of those things, no problem at all whatsoever.

I am a guest in your house. If this is too touchy a subject for me to pursue on TWeb without being pushed into positions the scriptures have not led me into, I’m quite willing to back off and drop it.

Blessings,

John

John no subject, well practically no subject, is too touchy. This is a perfectly legitimate question. No one will (nor do I thnk that they ever could) push you into somehting you are not led into. However, I know you know that we at TWeb are committed to the historically orthodox of the physical bodily resurrection. That does not mean each of our members is, nor does it mean that a member who does not agree is not welcome to speak. You are a dear friend John. My concern is more that I will speak too strongly and insult you. I would back out of the conversation first.... you know my affection for you.

[John Reece]

That’s a very gracious response, Dee Dee, for which I thank you.

[John Reece]

• Matthew 28
  
  The Resurrection
  
  1 Now after the Sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to see the tomb. 2 And behold, there was a great earthquake, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothing white as snow. 4 And for fear of him the guards trembled and became like dead men. 5 But the angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he has risen, as he said. Come, see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples that he has risen from the dead, and behold, he is going before you to Galilee; there you will see him. See, I have told you." 8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of ([greek]ekrathsan[/greek]) his feet and worshiped him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee, and there they will see me." (ESV)

Jesus appeared to the two Mary’s in a body that could be held by them.

[The Curtmudgeon]

Yesterday @ 07:24 PM John Reece:

• Matthew 28:9 And behold, Jesus met them and said, "Greetings!" And they came up and took hold of ([greek]ekrathsan[/greek]) his feet and worshiped him.(ESV)

Jesus appeared to the two Mary’s in a body that could be held by them.

I've always thought this interesting, especially in view of what He told Mary Magdalene separately in John's account:

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

I'm no Greek scholar at all, but I notice that Strong's [yes, I've read all the comments about the dangers of relying on Strong's, but it's what I've got to work with] shows this 'touch' as a different word, απτον. I've been told that this verse should be translated "Don't cling to me" or similar (implying more emotional holding on, rather than physical), but does the difference in Greek words really mean that?

Along with your point here, there is also Jesus' invitation to "Doubting" Thomas to put his finger in the nail-prints and thrust his hand into the spear wound in His side. Obviously, Jesus would not have told Thomas to do these things if he could not, in fact, do them.

The (always doubting, but never Him) Curtmudgeon

[John Reece]

Today @ 06:59 PM post located here
The Curtmudgeon:
. . . . .

I'm no Greek scholar at all, but I notice that Strong's [yes, I've read all the comments about the dangers of relying on Strong's, but it's what I've got to work with] shows this 'touch' as a different word, [greek]apton[/greek] (gee, I hope that comes out right!). I've been told that this verse should be translated "Don't cling to me" or similar (implying more emotional holding on, rather than physical), but does the difference in Greek words really mean that?

. . . . . .

The (always doubting, but never Him) Curtmudgeon

Max Zerwick, in A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, translates the phrase in question, "Stop clinging to me!"

[John Reece]

• Luke 24
  
  On the Road to Emmaus
  
  13 That very day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, 14 and they were talking with each other about all these things that had happened. 15 While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them. 16 But their eyes were kept from recognizing him. 17 And he said to them, "What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?" And they stood still, looking sad. 18 Then one of them, named Cleopas, answered him, "Are you the only visitor to Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?" 19 And he said to them, "What things?" And they said to him, "Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, a man who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people, 20 and how our chief priests and rulers delivered him up to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we had hoped that he was the one to redeem Israel. Yes, and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things happened. 22 Moreover, some women of our company amazed us. They were at the tomb early in the morning, 23 and when they did not find his body, they came back saying that they had even seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive. 24 Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see." 25 And he said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?" 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.
  28 So they drew near to the village to which they were going. He acted as if he were going farther, 29 but they urged him strongly, saying, "Stay with us, for it is toward evening and the day is now far spent." So he went in to stay with them. 30 When he was at table with them, he took the bread and blessed and broke it and gave it to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight. 32 They said to each other, "Did not our hearts burn within us while he talked to us on the road, while he opened to us the Scriptures?" 33 And they rose that same hour and returned to Jerusalem. And they found the eleven and those who were with them gathered together, 34 saying, "The Lord has risen indeed, and has appeared to Simon!" 35 Then they told what had happened on the road, and how he was known to them in the breaking of the bread. (ESV)

Jesus appeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus in a body they did not recognize (even though they spent time in intimate communication with him) until “their eyes were opened”, a body that suddenly “vanished from their sight” when they were enabled to recognize Him.

[John Reece]

• Luke 24
  
  Jesus Appears to His Disciples
  
  36 As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, "Peace to you!" 37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." 40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate before them. (ESV)

Jesus, in his resurrection body, contrasted himself with “a spirit”, affirming that he had “flesh and bones”, which he demonstrated by eating broiled fish in the presence of his disciples.

[John Reece]

• John 20
  
  Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
  
  11 But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb. 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet. 13 They said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them, "They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him." 14 Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her, "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?" Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." 16 Jesus said to her, "Mary." She turned and said to him in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher). 17 Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, "I have seen the Lord"--and that he had said these things to her.
  
  Jesus Appears to the Disciples
  
  19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 20 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. 21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."
  
  Jesus and Thomas
  
  24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord." But he said to them, "Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe."
  26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you." 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (ESV)

Mary did not recognize Jesus.

Jesus appears in a room the doors of which were locked.

Jesus invites Thomas to place his finger and hands in Jesus’ hands and side.

[John Reece]

• John 21
  
  Jesus Appears to Seven Disciples
  
  1 After this Jesus revealed himself again to the disciples by the Sea of Tiberias, and he revealed himself in this way. 2 Simon Peter, Thomas (called the Twin), Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two others of his disciples were together. 3 Simon Peter said to them, "I am going fishing." They said to him, "We will go with you." They went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.
  4 Just as day was breaking, Jesus stood on the shore; yet the disciples did not know that it was Jesus. 5 Jesus said to them, "Children, do you have any fish?" They answered him, "No." 6 He said to them, "Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and you will find some." So they cast it, and now they were not able to haul it in, because of the quantity of fish. 7 That disciple whom Jesus loved therefore said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his outer garment, for he was stripped for work, and threw himself into the sea. 8 The other disciples came in the boat, dragging the net full of fish, for they were not far from the land, but about a hundred yards off.
  9 When they got out on land, they saw a charcoal fire in place, with fish laid out on it, and bread. 10 Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish that you have just caught." 11 So Simon Peter went aboard and hauled the net ashore, full of large fish, 153 of them. And although there were so many, the net was not torn. 12 Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." Now none of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came and took the bread and gave it to them, and so with the fish. 14This was now the third time that Jesus was revealed to the disciples after he was raised from the dead.
  
  Jesus and Peter
  
  15 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16 He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. 18 Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go." 19 (This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."
  
  Jesus and the Beloved Apostle
  
  20 Peter turned and saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them, the one who had been reclining at table close to him and had said, "Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?" 21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!" 23 So the saying spread abroad among the brothers that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?"
  24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness about these things, and who has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.
  25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. (ESV)

I get the impression that the disciples did not recognize Jesus by physical appearance, but by intuition.