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Ancient Jews more literate than previously thought

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post
    Most probably not.

    The paper by Finkelstein et al is interesting but still speculative in its conclusions.

    However, I am aware of the dangers of presuming ancient Israelite exceptionalism premised on much later views as well as the development of Judaic exclusivity.

    In the seventh century BCE these were simply one group of peoples among many others, and within that contemporary context, not an overly important or significant one.
    It had nothing whatsoever to do with "exceptionalism" and everything with simply following and teaching the Torah. That requires a certain level of literacy to perform. And as I said, when estimates of the time place literacy rates at roughly 2%, you don't have to go all that far to exceed that.

    As for the evidence offered from that distant outpost in the 7th Century B.C., it clearly showed that at least half a dozen people among a small group including low ranking soldiers (historically speaking a group where high levels of reading and writing are not found) at an isolated fort (not a commerce or cultural center where higher levels of literacy would normally be found) could read and write proficiently (evidenced by the lack of errors).

    That is hard to hand wave off no matter how hard you try.



    I'm always still in trouble again

    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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    • #17
      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      It had nothing whatsoever to do with "exceptionalism" and everything with simply following and teaching the Torah. That requires a certain level of literacy to perform.
      No it doesn't. The Qur'an is often taught by rote.

      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      And as I said, when estimates of the time place literacy rates at roughly 2%, you don't have to go all that far to exceed that.
      At what precise historical period of the region are you referencing and what societies and their social strata?


      Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
      As for the evidence offered from that distant outpost in the 7th Century B.C., it clearly showed that at least half a dozen people among a small group including low ranking soldiers (historically speaking a group where high levels of reading and writing are not found) at an isolated fort (not a commerce or cultural center where higher levels of literacy would normally be found) could read and write proficiently (evidenced by the lack of errors).
      It "clearly showed" nothing of the sort.

      "It ain't necessarily so
      The things that you're liable
      To read in the Bible
      It ain't necessarily so
      ."

      Sportin' Life
      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by rogue06 View Post

        As for the evidence offered from that distant outpost in the 7th Century B.C., it clearly showed that at least half a dozen people among a small group including low ranking soldiers (historically speaking a group where high levels of reading and writing are not found) at an isolated fort (not a commerce or cultural center where higher levels of literacy would normally be found) could read and write proficiently (evidenced by the lack of errors).
        It does clearly show that, but there are a few problems with drawing a conclusion about more general circumstances - even if it could be determined that the writers were concurrently present at the site, what does one site indicate about others? Stand out exceptions to general rules are quite common.
        1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
        .
        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
        Scripture before Tradition:
        but that won't prevent others from
        taking it upon themselves to deprive you
        of the right to call yourself Christian.

        ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

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        • #19
          Originally posted by tabibito View Post

          It does clearly show that, but there are a few problems with drawing a conclusion about more general circumstances - even if it could be determined that the writers were concurrently present at the site, what does one site indicate about others? Stand out exceptions to general rules are quite common.
          The researchers concluded that the at least six different individuals who had written the 18 missives had done so at around the same time.

          Are you demanding an entire library from multiple sites before any conclusion can be reached? That's H_A territory there. Of course you are free to assume that half a dozen fully literate ancient Israelite soldiers just happened to be stationed together at a distant outpost while everywhere else they were all illiterate, but I think the onus is on you to demonstrate that rather than the other way around.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            The researchers concluded that the at least six different individuals who had written the 18 missives had done so at around the same time.

            Are you demanding an entire library from multiple sites before any conclusion can be reached? That's H_A territory there. Of course you are free to assume that half a dozen fully literate ancient Israelite soldiers just happened to be stationed together at a distant outpost while everywhere else they were all illiterate, but I think the onus is on you to demonstrate that rather than the other way around.
            We have no idea who wrote those ostraca texts nor their social position.

            I consider that the paper makes a rather tendentious observation.

            A contending claim that the ostraca were written by professional scribes can be dismissed with two arguments: the existence of two distinct writers in the tiny fortress of Arad (authors of ostraca 31 and 39) and the textual content of the inscriptions: Ostracon 1 orders the recipient (Eliashib) “write the name of the day,” ostracon 7 commands “and write it before you…,” and in ostracon 40 (reconstructions in refs. 6 and 18) the author mentions that he had written the letter. Thus, rather than implying the existence of scribes accompanying every Judahite official, the written evidence suggests a high degree of literacy in the entire Judahite chain of command.


            That does not automatically rule out scribes being used. The request to insert of the "name of the day" and the injunction to "write it before you" could quite easily have been undertaken by a scribe. Furthermore, dictating correspondence would [then as now] be considered to constitute having written that correspondence.

            The text also uses qualifiers in some of its conclusions. To wit the above extract "suggests a high degree of literacy" and later:

            Extrapolating the minimum of six authors in 16 Arad ostraca to the entire Arad corpus, to the whole military system in the southern Judahite frontier, to military posts in other sectors of the kingdom, to central administration towns such as Lachish, and to the capital, Jerusalem, a significant number of literate individuals can be assumed to have lived in Judah ca. 600 BCE.

            .
            The spread of literacy in late-monarchic Judah provides a possible stage settingfor the compilation of literary works[/box]

            If the general populace including the common soldiery was as literate as you seem to be suggesting why does the paper then continue:

            However, in the Babylonian, Persian, and early Hellenistic periods, Jerusalem and the southern highlands show almost no evidence in the form of Hebrew inscriptions. In fact, not a single securely dated Hebrew inscription has been found in this territory for the period between 586 and ca. 350 BCE#—not an ostracon or a seal, a seal impression, or a bulla [...] This should come as no surprise, because the destruction of Judah brought about the collapse of the kingdom’s bureaucracy and deportation of many of the literati.


            "It ain't necessarily so
            The things that you're liable
            To read in the Bible
            It ain't necessarily so
            ."

            Sportin' Life
            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              The researchers concluded that the at least six different individuals who had written the 18 missives had done so at around the same time.

              Are you demanding an entire library from multiple sites before any conclusion can be reached? That's H_A territory there.
              I don't get convinced easily - that's a long way from being convinced only by evidence that I like.

              Of course you are free to assume that half a dozen fully literate ancient Israelite soldiers just happened to be stationed together at a distant outpost while everywhere else they were all illiterate, but I think the onus is on you to demonstrate that rather than the other way around.
              I am not assuming that random distribution wouldn't produce atypical concentrations, nor that commanders would have had no reason to assign a higher than usual number of literate persons to a particular site. That said and for all that hard evidence is lacking, it seems to me that the percentage of literate or semi literate persons among the ancient Hebrews is generally underestimated. This find might is supportive of that hypothesis, but by no means substantiates it.

              1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
              .
              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
              Scripture before Tradition:
              but that won't prevent others from
              taking it upon themselves to deprive you
              of the right to call yourself Christian.

              ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by tabibito View Post
                I don't get convinced easily - that's a long way from being convinced only by evidence that I like.

                I am not assuming that random distribution wouldn't produce atypical concentrations, nor that commanders would have had no reason to assign a higher than usual number of literate persons to a particular site. That said and for all that hard evidence is lacking, it seems to me that the percentage of literate or semi literate persons among the ancient Hebrews is generally underestimated. This find might is supportive of that hypothesis, but by no means substantiates it.
                I hope that at the very least that you troubled yourself to read both papers before you decided to handwave the evidence off as some sort of strange scouring of Israelite troops in order to send those who are literate to some distant outpost.

                I'm always still in trouble again

                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                  I hope that at the very least that you troubled yourself to read both papers before you decided to handwave the evidence off as some sort of strange scouring of Israelite troops in order to send those who are literate to some distant outpost.
                  Floating possibilities (pending more concrete information) doesn't constitute "hand-waving." Anomalous distributions can reasonably be expected in any statistical survey. In addition to the two possibilities already floated for example, It may even have been a particularly boring post where some few people decided to relieve the boredom by learning under a willing teacher.

                  Yes, I did read both - including the part where it says that there is uncertainty about whether all the writings originated on site.

                  However, the penultimate paragraph in the Plos write-up provides reasonable ground for accepting the (no more than) reasonable possibility that literacy levels might have been greater than majority consensus portrays.

                  For broader significance, this textual evidence should be considered together with ostraca
                  unearthed at other outposts in the southern periphery of Judah. We refer mainly to Horvat
                  ‘Uza [68] (where 34 inscriptions were discovered, including a wisdom composition probably
                  composed by a local scribe and reflecting a high degree of literacy [69]), Horvat Radum [68],
                  Tel Malhata [70], Beer Sheba [71], Tel ‘Ira [72,73], Aroer [74], Tel Masos [75] and Kadesh Barnea
                  [76]. The wealth of texts from the Negev (preserved because of dry weather conditions)
                  can be supplemented by the military correspondence within the rich corpus from Lachish in
                  the Shephelah [77] (the officer writing Lachish Ostracon 3 is seemingly offended by the suggestion
                  that he is assisted by a scribe!), as well as by religious/cultic [12] and administrative
                  [11,13,14] texts from other Judahite sites.
                  1Cor 15:34 Come to your senses as you ought and stop sinning; for I say to your shame, there are some who know not God.
                  .
                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛
                  Scripture before Tradition:
                  but that won't prevent others from
                  taking it upon themselves to deprive you
                  of the right to call yourself Christian.

                  ⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛⊛

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                    Floating possibilities (pending more concrete information) doesn't constitute "hand-waving." Anomalous distributions can reasonably be expected in any statistical survey. In addition to the two possibilities already floated for example, It may even have been a particularly boring post where some few people decided to relieve the boredom by learning under a willing teacher.

                    Yes, I did read both - including the part where it says that there is uncertainty about whether all the writings originated on site.

                    However, the penultimate paragraph in the Plos write-up provides reasonable ground for accepting the (no more than) reasonable possibility that literacy levels might have been greater than majority consensus portrays.

                    For broader significance, this textual evidence should be considered together with ostraca
                    unearthed at other outposts in the southern periphery of Judah. We refer mainly to Horvat
                    ‘Uza [68] (where 34 inscriptions were discovered, including a wisdom composition probably
                    composed by a local scribe and reflecting a high degree of literacy [69]), Horvat Radum [68],
                    Tel Malhata [70], Beer Sheba [71], Tel ‘Ira [72,73], Aroer [74], Tel Masos [75] and Kadesh Barnea
                    [76]. The wealth of texts from the Negev (preserved because of dry weather conditions)
                    can be supplemented by the military correspondence within the rich corpus from Lachish in
                    the Shephelah [77] (the officer writing Lachish Ostracon 3 is seemingly offended by the suggestion
                    that he is assisted by a scribe!), as well as by religious/cultic [12] and administrative
                    [11,13,14] texts from other Judahite sites.
                    Drat. I was waiting to drop that section on ya.

                    I'm always still in trouble again

                    "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                    "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                    "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by tabibito View Post

                      Floating possibilities (pending more concrete information) doesn't constitute "hand-waving." Anomalous distributions can reasonably be expected in any statistical survey. In addition to the two possibilities already floated for example, It may even have been a particularly boring post where some few people decided to relieve the boredom by learning under a willing teacher.

                      Yes, I did read both - including the part where it says that there is uncertainty about whether all the writings originated on site.

                      However, the penultimate paragraph in the Plos write-up provides reasonable ground for accepting the (no more than) reasonable possibility that literacy levels might have been greater than majority consensus portrays.

                      For broader significance, this textual evidence should be considered together with ostraca
                      unearthed at other outposts in the southern periphery of Judah. We refer mainly to Horvat
                      ‘Uza [68] (where 34 inscriptions were discovered, including a wisdom composition probably
                      composed by a local scribe and reflecting a high degree of literacy [69]), Horvat Radum [68],
                      Tel Malhata [70], Beer Sheba [71], Tel ‘Ira [72,73], Aroer [74], Tel Masos [75] and Kadesh Barnea
                      [76]. The wealth of texts from the Negev (preserved because of dry weather conditions)
                      can be supplemented by the military correspondence within the rich corpus from Lachish in
                      the Shephelah [77] (the officer writing Lachish Ostracon 3 is seemingly offended by the suggestion
                      that he is assisted by a scribe!), as well as by religious/cultic [12] and administrative
                      [11,13,14] texts from other Judahite sites.
                      I am beginning to wonder if rogue06 imagines that in 8th century BCE Judah the population sat at home each evening writing their diaries or composing poetry.
                      "It ain't necessarily so
                      The things that you're liable
                      To read in the Bible
                      It ain't necessarily so
                      ."

                      Sportin' Life
                      Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Hypatia_Alexandria View Post

                        I am beginning to wonder if rogue06 imagines that in 8th century BCE Judah the population sat at home each evening writing their diaries or composing poetry.
                        I am in awe of your ability to handwave away any and all evidence whilst simultaneously implying that it's the other bloke who's being extraordinarily fanciful in his speculations.
                        Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                          I am in awe of your ability to handwave away any and all evidence whilst simultaneously implying that it's the other bloke who's being extraordinarily fanciful in his speculations.
                          She must be a vampire. That would explain the total lack of mirrors in her house.

                          She also confused the 7th cent with the 8th. Just as expected from a so-called historian

                          I'm always still in trouble again

                          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                            I am in awe of your ability to handwave away any and all evidence whilst simultaneously implying that it's the other bloke who's being extraordinarily fanciful in his speculations.
                            Why do some here consider that any disagreement constitutes handwaving something away? The term is [apparently from Wiki] "a pejorative label for attempting to be seen as effective – in word, reasoning, or deed – while actually doing nothing effective or substantial.[1] It is most often applied to debate techniques that involve fallacies, misdirection and the glossing over of details."

                            I have merely pointed out that the evidence is far from conclusive and [in my opinion] the paper made a somewhat tendentious claim and I gave my reasons.

                            rogue06 contended that

                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            It had nothing whatsoever to do with "exceptionalism" and everything with simply following and teaching the Torah. That requires a certain level of literacy to perform. And as I said, when estimates of the time place literacy rates at roughly 2%, you don't have to go all that far to exceed that.


                            Interestingly he has never provided the source evidence from where he derived his claim of "roughly 2% literacy rates", nor which society or which precise historical period he was referencing.

                            And as I pointed out the Qur'an is still often taught by oral rote. So why should one ancient society be any different?

                            He also alleged that:

                            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                            As for the evidence offered from that distant outpost in the 7th Century B.C., it clearly showed that at least half a dozen people among a small group including low ranking soldiers (historically speaking a group where high levels of reading and writing are not found) at an isolated fort (not a commerce or cultural center where higher levels of literacy would normally be found) could read and write proficiently (evidenced by the lack of errors).


                            Unless he has been consulting his crystal ball we have absolutely no idea as to who the authors of those ostraca were or their social status.

                            Furthermore why is it assumed that literacy rates were higher among the general populace of ancient Judah than in Assyrian, Babylonian, or Egyptian societies?

                            I repeat my earlier comment about ancient Israelite exceptionalism as it appears that some here consider the ancient Israelites to have been a special case when, in their contemporary world, they were a minor people of little importance.

                            As to the snide remark by rogue06 he should note that I was extending the alleged levels of Judahite literacy further back in history for ironic purposes.
                            "It ain't necessarily so
                            The things that you're liable
                            To read in the Bible
                            It ain't necessarily so
                            ."

                            Sportin' Life
                            Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              While reading up on literacy rates in ancient Israel, it seems that the rate fluctuated greatly. For example, David McLain Carr, professor of the Old Testament at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City, and regarded as a leading expert on the textual formation of the OT, says that literacy rates were very high up until the Exile, when it declined sharply and only slowly rebuilt over the following centuries.

                              After an examination of documents from the period, Michael O. Wise, professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Languages at Northwestern University, indicates that between the time of Pompey and Hadrian, up to 5% of adult Jews in Judea were able to read books, while up to 16% could sign their name. In his Language and Literary in Roman Judaea: A Study of the Bar Kokhba Documents, Wise described the period thusly:

                              "A literate society filled with illiterates -- especially women: that was Roman Judea in a nutshell"


                              Catherine Hezser, a professor of Jewish Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, has estimated that at least 90% of the Jews in Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE were semi-literate (only able to write their names and such) or totally illiterate. But that leaves a 10% literacy rate.

                              OTOH, Meir Bar-Ilan, a professor at Bar-Ilan University's Department of Talmud and the Department of Jewish History, supports the idea that the literacy rate was low, but he makes a very interesting observation that if you exclude women the literacy rate among adult males in urban areas might have been as high as 20%.
                              Last edited by rogue06; 03-31-2022, 11:15 AM. Reason: fix quote from Wise

                              I'm always still in trouble again

                              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                While reading up on literacy rates in ancient Israel, it seems that the rate fluctuated greatly. For example, David McLain Carr, professor of the Old Testament at the Union Theological Seminary in New York City, and regarded as a leading expert on the textual formation of the OT, says that literacy rates were very high up until the Exile, when it declined sharply and only slowly rebuilt over the following centuries.
                                On what attested historical evidence?


                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                After an examination of documents from the period, Michael O. Wise, professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Languages at Northwestern University, indicates that between the time of Pompey and Hadrian, up to 5% of adult Jews in Judea were able to read books, while up to 16% could sign their name.
                                That is nearly 600 years later than the period discussed in the paper.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                Catherine Hezser, a professor of Jewish Studies at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, has estimated that at least 90% of the Jews in Roman Palestine in the first centuries CE were semi-literate (only able to write their names and such) or totally illiterate. But that leaves a 10% literacy rate.
                                Again, that is a much later period in history.

                                You may as well try and equate literacy levels in western Europe in the 1000s with those of the 1600s.

                                Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                                OTOH, Meir Bar-Ilan, a professor at Bar-Ilan University's Department of Talmud and the Department of Jewish History, supports the idea that the literacy rate was low, but he makes a very interesting observation that if you exclude women the literacy rate among adult males in urban areas might have been as high as 20%.
                                What precise historical period is being referenced?
                                Last edited by Hypatia_Alexandria; 03-31-2022, 11:42 AM.
                                "It ain't necessarily so
                                The things that you're liable
                                To read in the Bible
                                It ain't necessarily so
                                ."

                                Sportin' Life
                                Porgy & Bess, DuBose Heyward, George & Ira Gershwin

                                Comment

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