Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 15 of 15

Thread: The Myth of the Neronian Persecution

  1. #11
    tWebber Secular Liberation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
    Faith
    Secular Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    193
    Amen (Given)
    72
    Amen (Received)
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    You are correct, and I apologize for my mistake. Ross wrote a book, The Myth of Persecution, in 2013. I got them mixed up.
    Thank you for retracting that, I was given an infraction because of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    Your basic argument is that Christians hijacked their own history. Your support is articles claiming that the persecution under Nero was not due to the fire, and not as severe as Christians claimed. Granted, Tacitus hesitates to blame Nero for the fire.

    Haraldsson cites three people agreeing with this notion that you wish to ignore.

    Who? I clicked onto the link to get part one of his essay, but all that did was take me to more leftist nonsense from PolicicusUSA. In part two, however, he mentions Michael Grant,

    In the end we will never know, and as Michael Grant points out in reference to Tacitus, “But systematic, careful references are a modern invention. Ancient historians only specified their sources in a fragmentary and unsystematic fashion.” (citing Grant's The Annals of Imperial Rome".)

    Actually, if you read the paragraphs before that, you will see that Grant is criticising Tacitus's negative handling of Tiberius Caesar. Grant adds,

    "After Tiberius, his accounts of Claudius and Nero, viewed as character studies, can afford to be more straightforward."

    In The Jews in the Roman World (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons; 1973. P. 179), Grant writes about the community of Christians:

    Now, in 64, this community incurred savage treatment from Nero. For Rome was partially wrecked by a terrible fire; and when the homeless refugees began to believe rumours (no doubt untruthful) that the emperor himself had deliberately started the conflagration owing to his passion to reconstruct the city, the government chose to blame the Christians as the incendiarists. Our account comes from the historian Tacitus, writing half a century later and relying on sources whose authenticity we cannot assess...."

    He then quotes the passage from Tacitus, then adds:

    Grant, like Tacitus, hesitates to accept that Nero was responsible for the fire. But he certainly agrees with Tacitus and Suetonius about the harsh treatment of the Roman Christians under Nero.
    That's not three people, that's one. For all we know the Christians started the fire. There's a wide variety of scholars who believe Jesus and Paul were apocalyptic prophets as well:
    http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...epsanders.html
    "Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi

  2. #12
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sagittarius Arm
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    884
    Amen (Given)
    156
    Amen (Received)
    404
    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    Where did I argue that there weren't persecutions under Diocletian and Trajan? Nowhere, in fact
    Not you, but other minimalists which I have read.


    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    So this discredits the sources he cited, how? Should every Christian apologist on this website be discredited based their conservative leanings?
    Yes. While some Christian apologists should be discounted based on their faulty logic. Liberalism such as appears on that website is totally illogical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    Exactly, Nero may have been crazy in many ways but how would he have caused the fire if he wasn't even in Rome?
    Rumors were that he ordered others to do it. I believe Suetonius mentioned something to the effect. I will have to double check that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    Christians didn't even call themselves Christians until after the Jewish Wars.
    Nonsense. Read Acts 11:26, some time around AD 35-40. Acts 26:28, quoting Herod Agrippa around AD 60. Or 1 Peter 4:16, written around AD 64.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    Brilliant, you're comparing people who deny the slaughter of millions compared to about 3,000 at most who were killed by the Roman state?
    Yes. Both deny the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    That's not three people, that's one.
    Who are the other two?
    Last edited by Faber; 04-17-2016 at 02:46 AM.

  3. #13
    tWebber Secular Liberation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
    Faith
    Secular Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    193
    Amen (Given)
    72
    Amen (Received)
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    Not you, but other minimalists which I have read.
    Well not me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    Yes. While some Christian apologists should be discounted based on their faulty logic. Liberalism such as appears on that website is totally illogical.
    The political opinions of the website are meaningless with the amount of research done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    Who are the other two?
    The other two you tried to use against me. You only used one source.
    "Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi

  4. #14
    tWebber Faber's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Sagittarius Arm
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    884
    Amen (Given)
    156
    Amen (Received)
    404
    Quote Originally Posted by Secular Liberation View Post
    The political opinions of the website are meaningless with the amount of research done.
    The amount of research done is meaningless if they have a biased agenda they're trying to support.

  5. #15
    tWebber Secular Liberation's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Location
    Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
    Faith
    Secular Humanist
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    193
    Amen (Given)
    72
    Amen (Received)
    22
    Quote Originally Posted by Faber View Post
    The amount of research done is meaningless if they have a biased agenda they're trying to support.
    Then we should dismiss all the apologists on this whole website because they have a serious conservative political agenda that's behind the times.
    "Look at what happened after the European peoples succeeded in removing the clergy from public life and restricting them to their churches. They built up human being promoted enlightenment, creativity and rebellion. States which are based on religion confine their people in the circle of faith and fear."-Raif Badawi

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •