OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

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    1. #1
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      OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources Written by Michael Gleghorn

      Evidence from Tacitus


      Although there is overwhelming evidence that the New Testament is an accurate and trustworthy historical document, many people are still reluctant to believe what it says unless there is also some independent, non-biblical testimony that corroborates its statements. In the introduction to one of his books, F.F. Bruce tells about a Christian correspondent who was told by an agnostic friend that "apart from obscure references in Josephus and the like," there was no historical evidence for the life of Jesus outside the Bible.{1} This, he wrote to Bruce, had caused him "great concern and some little upset in [his] spiritual life."{2} He concludes his letter by asking, "Is such collateral proof available, and if not, are there reasons for the lack of it?"{3} The answer to this question is, "Yes, such collateral proof is available," and we will be looking at some of it in this article.

      Let's begin our inquiry with a passage that historian Edwin Yamauchi calls "probably the most important reference to Jesus outside the New Testament."{4} Reporting on Emperor Nero's decision to blame the Christians for the fire that had destroyed Rome in A.D. 64, the Roman historian Tacitus wrote:

      Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome. . . .{5}

      What all can we learn from this ancient (and rather unsympathetic) reference to Jesus and the early Christians? Notice, first, that Tacitus reports Christians derived their name from a historical person called Christus (from the Latin), or Christ. He is said to have "suffered the extreme penalty," obviously alluding to the Roman method of execution known as crucifixion. This is said to have occurred during the reign of Tiberius and by the sentence of Pontius Pilatus. This confirms much of what the Gospels tell us about the death of Jesus.

      But what are we to make of Tacitus' rather enigmatic statement that Christ's death briefly checked "a most mischievous superstition," which subsequently arose not only in Judaea, but also in Rome? One historian suggests that Tacitus is here "bearing indirect . . . testimony to the conviction of the early church that the Christ who had been crucified had risen from the grave."{6} While this interpretation is admittedly speculative, it does help explain the otherwise bizarre occurrence of a rapidly growing religion based on the worship of a man who had been crucified as a criminal.{7} How else might one explain that?
      Evidence from Pliny the Younger

      Another important source of evidence about Jesus and early Christianity can be found in the letters of Pliny the Younger to Emperor Trajan. Pliny was the Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor. In one of his letters, dated around A.D. 112, he asks Trajan's advice about the appropriate way to conduct legal proceedings against those accused of being Christians.{8} Pliny says that he needed to consult the emperor about this issue because a great multitude of every age, class, and sex stood accused of Christianity.{9}

      At one point in his letter, Pliny relates some of the information he has learned about these Christians:

      They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.{10}

      This passage provides us with a number of interesting insights into the beliefs and practices of early Christians. First, we see that Christians regularly met on a certain fixed day for worship. Second, their worship was directed to Christ, demonstrating that they firmly believed in His divinity. Furthermore, one scholar interprets Pliny's statement that hymns were sung to Christ, as to a god, as a reference to the rather distinctive fact that, "unlike other gods who were worshipped, Christ was a person who had lived on earth."{11} If this interpretation is correct, Pliny understood that Christians were worshipping an actual historical person as God! Of course, this agrees perfectly with the New Testament doctrine that Jesus was both God and man.

      Not only does Pliny's letter help us understand what early Christians believed about Jesus' person, it also reveals the high esteem to which they held His teachings. For instance, Pliny notes that Christians bound themselves by a solemn oath not to violate various moral standards, which find their source in the ethical teachings of Jesus. In addition, Pliny's reference to the Christian custom of sharing a common meal likely alludes to their observance of communion and the "love feast."{12} This interpretation helps explain the Christian claim that the meal was merely food of an ordinary and innocent kind. They were attempting to counter the charge, sometimes made by non-Christians, of practicing "ritual cannibalism."{13} The Christians of that day humbly repudiated such slanderous attacks on Jesus' teachings. We must sometimes do the same today.
      Evidence from Josephus

      Perhaps the most remarkable reference to Jesus outside the Bible can be found in the writings of Josephus, a first century Jewish historian. On two occasions, in his Jewish Antiquities, he mentions Jesus. The second, less revealing, reference describes the condemnation of one "James" by the Jewish Sanhedrin. This James, says Josephus, was "the brother of Jesus the so-called Christ."{14} F.F. Bruce points out how this agrees with Paul's description of James in Galatians 1:19 as "the Lord's brother."{15} And Edwin Yamauchi informs us that "few scholars have questioned" that Josephus actually penned this passage.{16}

      As interesting as this brief reference is, there is an earlier one, which is truly astonishing. Called the "Testimonium Flavianum," the relevant portion declares:

      About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he . . . wrought surprising feats. . . . He was the Christ. When Pilate . . .condemned him to be crucified, those who had . . . come to love him did not give up their affection for him. On the third day he appeared . . . restored to life. . . . And the tribe of Christians . . . has . . . not disappeared.{17}

      Did Josephus really write this? Most scholars think the core of the passage originated with Josephus, but that it was later altered by a Christian editor, possibly between the third and fourth century A.D.{18} But why do they think it was altered? Josephus was not a Christian, and it is difficult to believe that anyone but a Christian would have made some of these statements.{19}

      For instance, the claim that Jesus was a wise man seems authentic, but the qualifying phrase, "if indeed one ought to call him a man," is suspect. It implies that Jesus was more than human, and it is quite unlikely that Josephus would have said that! It is also difficult to believe he would have flatly asserted that Jesus was the Christ, especially when he later refers to Jesus as "the so-called" Christ. Finally, the claim that on the third day Jesus appeared to His disciples restored to life, inasmuch as it affirms Jesus' resurrection, is quite unlikely to come from a non-Christian!

      But even if we disregard the questionable parts of this passage, we are still left with a good deal of corroborating information about the biblical Jesus. We read that he was a wise man who performed surprising feats. And although He was crucified under Pilate, His followers continued their discipleship and became known as Christians. When we combine these statements with Josephus' later reference to Jesus as "the so-called Christ," a rather detailed picture emerges which harmonizes quite well with the biblical record. It increasingly appears that the "biblical Jesus" and the "historical Jesus" are one and the same!
      Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud

      There are only a few clear references to Jesus in the Babylonian Talmud, a collection of Jewish rabbinical writings compiled between approximately A.D. 70-500. Given this time frame, it is naturally supposed that earlier references to Jesus are more likely to be historically reliable than later ones. In the case of the Talmud, the earliest period of compilation occurred between A.D. 70-200.{20} The most significant reference to Jesus from this period states:

      On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."{21}

      Let's examine this passage. You may have noticed that it refers to someone named "Yeshu." So why do we think this is Jesus? Actually, "Yeshu" (or "Yeshua") is how Jesus' name is pronounced in Hebrew. But what does the passage mean by saying that Jesus "was hanged"? Doesn't the New Testament say he was crucified? Indeed it does. But the term "hanged" can function as a synonym for "crucified." For instance, Galatians 3:13 declares that Christ was "hanged", and Luke 23:39 applies this term to the criminals who were crucified with Jesus.{22} So the Talmud declares that Jesus was crucified on the eve of Passover. But what of the cry of the herald that Jesus was to be stoned? This may simply indicate what the Jewish leaders were planning to do.{23} If so, Roman involvement changed their plans!{24}

      The passage also tells us why Jesus was crucified. It claims He practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy! Since this accusation comes from a rather hostile source, we should not be too surprised if Jesus is described somewhat differently than in the New Testament. But if we make allowances for this, what might such charges imply about Jesus?

      Interestingly, both accusations have close parallels in the canonical gospels. For instance, the charge of sorcery is similar to the Pharisees' accusation that Jesus cast out demons "by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons."{25} But notice this: such a charge actually tends to confirm the New Testament claim that Jesus performed miraculous feats. Apparently Jesus' miracles were too well attested to deny. The only alternative was to ascribe them to sorcery! Likewise, the charge of enticing Israel to apostasy parallels Luke's account of the Jewish leaders who accused Jesus of misleading the nation with his teaching.{26} Such a charge tends to corroborate the New Testament record of Jesus' powerful teaching ministry. Thus, if read carefully, this passage from the Talmud confirms much of our knowledge about Jesus from the New Testament.
      Evidence from Lucian

      Lucian of Samosata was a second century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

      The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.{27}

      Although Lucian is jesting here at the early Christians, he does make some significant comments about their founder. For instance, he says the Christians worshipped a man, "who introduced their novel rites." And though this man's followers clearly thought quite highly of Him, He so angered many of His contemporaries with His teaching that He "was crucified on that account."

      Although Lucian does not mention his name, he is clearly referring to Jesus. But what did Jesus teach to arouse such wrath? According to Lucian, he taught that all men are brothers from the moment of their conversion. That's harmless enough. But what did this conversion involve? It involved denying the Greek gods, worshipping Jesus, and living according to His teachings. It's not too difficult to imagine someone being killed for teaching that. Though Lucian doesn't say so explicitly, the Christian denial of other gods combined with their worship of Jesus implies the belief that Jesus was more than human. Since they denied other gods in order to worship Him, they apparently thought Jesus a greater God than any that Greece had to offer!

      Let's summarize what we've learned about Jesus from this examination of ancient non-Christian sources. First, both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!

      I hope you see how this small selection of ancient non-Christian sources helps corroborate our knowledge of Jesus from the gospels. Of course, there are many ancient Christian sources of information about Jesus as well. But since the historical reliability of the canonical gospels is so well established, I invite you to read those for an authoritative "life of Jesus!"

      Notes

      1. F. F. Bruce, Jesus and Christian Origins Outside the New Testament (Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1974), 13.

      2. Ibid.

      3. Ibid.

      4. Edwin Yamauchi, quoted in Lee Strobel, The Case for Christ (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1998), 82.

      5. Tacitus, Annals 15.44, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

      6. N.D. Anderson, Christianity: The Witness of History (London: Tyndale, 1969), 19, cited in Gary R. Habermas, The Historical Jesus (Joplin, Missouri: College Press Publishing Company, 1996), 189-190.

      7. Edwin Yamauchi, cited in Strobel, The Case for Christ, 82.

      8. Pliny, Epistles x. 96, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 25; Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 198.

      9. Ibid., 27.

      10. Pliny, Letters, transl. by William Melmoth, rev. by W.M.L. Hutchinson (Cambridge: Harvard Univ. Press, 1935), vol. II, X:96, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

      11. M. Harris, "References to Jesus in Early Classical Authors," in Gospel Perspectives V, 354-55, cited in E. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament: What is the Evidence?", in Jesus Under Fire, ed. by Michael J. Wilkins and J.P. Moreland (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan Publishing House, 1995), p. 227, note 66.

      12. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 199.

      13. Bruce, Christian Origins, 28.

      14. Josephus, Antiquities xx. 200, cited in Bruce, Christian Origins, 36.

      15. Ibid.

      16. Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

      17. Josephus, Antiquities 18.63-64, cited in Yamauchi, "Jesus Outside the New Testament", 212.

      18. Ibid.

      19. Although time would not permit me to mention it on the radio, another version of Josephus' "Testimonium Flavianum" survives in a tenth-century Arabic version (Bruce, Christian Origins, 41). In 1971, Professor Schlomo Pines published a study on this passage. The passage is interesting because it lacks most of the questionable elements that many scholars believe to be Christian interpolations. Indeed, "as Schlomo Pines and David Flusser...stated, it is quite plausible that none of the arguments against Josephus writing the original words even applies to the Arabic text, especially since the latter would have had less chance of being censored by the church" (Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194). The passage reads as follows: "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Quoted in James H. Charlesworth, Jesus Within Judaism, (Garden City: Doubleday, 1988), 95, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 194).

      20. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03.

      21. The Babylonian Talmud, transl. by I. Epstein (London: Soncino, 1935), vol. III, Sanhedrin 43a, 281, cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

      22. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 203.

      23. See John 8:58-59 and 10:31-33.

      24. Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 204. See also John 18:31-32.

      25. Matt. 12:24. I gleaned this observation from Bruce, Christian Origins, 56.

      26. Luke 23:2, 5.

      27. Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.

      ©2001 Probe Ministries.

      About the Author

      Michael Gleghorn is a research associate with Probe Ministries. He earned a B.A. in psychology from Baylor University and a Th.M. in systematic theology from Dallas Theological Seminary. Before coming on staff with Probe he taught history and theology at Christway Academy in Duncanville, Texas. Michael is married to his beautiful wife Hannah.
      What is Probe?

      Probe Ministries is a non-profit ministry whose mission is to assist the church in renewing the minds of believers with a Christian worldview and to equip the church to engage the world for Christ. Probe fulfills this mission through our Mind Games conferences for youth and adults, our 3 1/2 minute daily radio program, and our extensive Web site at www.probe.org.

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      "I'm hoping to rope enough corpses together to make a small raft." Mad_Gerbil, D&G

    2. The following tWebber says Amen to Trout for this useful Post:


    3. #2
      Theolog's Avatar
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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Great article.

      I have always believed that Josephus was a Christian. He was a priest that served in the temple when Jesus was alive. He Claimed that God told him to quit fighting the Romans and surrender to the write history. Being a priest he wittnessed first hand Jesus Christ. As Jewish Historian he was bound to the truth. I am equally sure that most Jews that witnessed the events on that faithful day knew that Jesus was the messiah at the time but the cost was too dear to the politicos so the killed him and changed many of the peoples opinion. Much like todays government.

      In short I believe that Josephus wrote in a manner that Christians would understand and non Christians would not. His accounts of the great tribulation are very chilling. It seems clear that he was saying nothing like it had ever happened before or will ever happen again. I could go on but you get the picture.
      Flaming Full Preterist. If you don't get it don't bother.
      The early Church fathers were theological nitwits and things got worse. If your theology involves them your'e lost and you need to reformat.
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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      great article.

      excellent corroboration of much that has already been said.

      (theolog, no one has any evidence corroborating your assertions. sorry. )
      “The mystery of the incarnation of the Lord is the key to all the arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward [principles] of created things, while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything.” -St. Maximus the Confessor

      "I would join countless numbers of evangelical Protestants and say I have come to know Christ with fulfilling and life-changing effects and daily witness His grace and leadership in my life. But just because God in His grace and mercy has met us where we are and adapted Himself to our unique cultural and religious circumstances in no way means He has abandoned His original plan. God does not contradict Himself. Truth is intolerant, and truth is found in the Church’s living and Holy Tradition. It is my growing conviction that only a strong living Tradition can protect us from the corrosive and destructive forces of modern life, the insidious and deceptive effects of modern pluralism, and the disheartening and confusing proliferation of religious opinions...What are we to do with this "cloud of witnesses," this Holy Tradition through which they live and speak with such clarity and certitude? Well, for me there seems to be only one logical response. I must turn to the Church and its sacred Tradition; I must listen humbly and be instructed. I cannot let God’s marvelous blessings of the past blind me to what I have missed or deter me from that to which He would lead me still. I must return home to Orthodoxy." Rev. Dorraine S. Snogren, The Road That Leads Home

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Quote Originally posted by Lance Q/Barker View Post
      great article.

      excellent corroboration of much that has already been said.
      I heartily agree with what Lance has said, and contrary to what I've heard many skeptics say, this evidence is EXTRAORDINARILY solid!

      A great article, and once again, a powerful reinforcement of something skeptics can often obscure: the great evidence for the historical Jesus.
      "Christianity," says Bishop Wilson, "inscribes on the portal of her dominion 'Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, shall in nowise enter therein.' Christianity does not profess to convince the perverse and headstrong, to bring irresistible evidence to the daring and profane, to vanquish the proud scorner, and afford evidences from which the careless and perverse cannot possibly escape. This might go to destroy man's responsibility. All that Christianity professes, is to propose such evidences as may satisfy the meek, the tractable, the candid, the serious inquirer." http://www.woundedheart.org/sgtestimony.htm

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Didn't Christ get his last name from "Christos", which was a Greek term?

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      "Christos" is the Greek for the Hebrew "Mashiach" which means "Anointed One."
      it's more of a title than a name.
      Jesus' proper name would have been something like Yeshua bar Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph).

      [note: Jesus didn't have to be Joseph's natural son to be called his son.]
      “The mystery of the incarnation of the Lord is the key to all the arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward [principles] of created things, while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything.” -St. Maximus the Confessor

      "I would join countless numbers of evangelical Protestants and say I have come to know Christ with fulfilling and life-changing effects and daily witness His grace and leadership in my life. But just because God in His grace and mercy has met us where we are and adapted Himself to our unique cultural and religious circumstances in no way means He has abandoned His original plan. God does not contradict Himself. Truth is intolerant, and truth is found in the Church’s living and Holy Tradition. It is my growing conviction that only a strong living Tradition can protect us from the corrosive and destructive forces of modern life, the insidious and deceptive effects of modern pluralism, and the disheartening and confusing proliferation of religious opinions...What are we to do with this "cloud of witnesses," this Holy Tradition through which they live and speak with such clarity and certitude? Well, for me there seems to be only one logical response. I must turn to the Church and its sacred Tradition; I must listen humbly and be instructed. I cannot let God’s marvelous blessings of the past blind me to what I have missed or deter me from that to which He would lead me still. I must return home to Orthodoxy." Rev. Dorraine S. Snogren, The Road That Leads Home

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      "I'm hoping to rope enough corpses together to make a small raft." Mad_Gerbil, D&G

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Outstanding ! And this is from Probe. I have known of them for many years; grew up within walking distance. A great ministry. I tried to get on as an artist with them when I was a "kid." As I recall, the ministry was supportive of Josh McDowell's, headquartered then in the same city. McDowell was a strong part of the national "Campus Crusade for Christ" ministry, founded by the late Bill Bright.

      Thanks, TWeb, for providing this. It's very encouraging to see these proofs that Jesus is indeed a historical person, well recorded outside of the NT testimonies as someone fitting, factually, right in there.

      In my opinion, the single most telling piece of evidence that shows how poorly we're manifesting our call to care for animals is the recent creation of factory farms. Over the last century we have, to a large degree, reduced farm animals to commercialized commodities whose only value is found in how efficiently we can produce and slaughter them for profit. Consequently, more than 26 billion animals each year are forced to live in miserable, overcrowded warehouses, where there is absolutely nothing natural about their existence and where they are subjected to barbaric, painful, industrial procedures.
      This is a far cry from what God meant when he told us to exercise "dominion."
      (Pastor Greg Boyd.)

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      This is a very useful summary indeed. May it be widely read.
      "Personally though, I won't use psychoactives because of the possibility of contacting a demon." - Kelp

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Quote Originally posted by Jack Bauer View Post
      This is a very useful summary indeed. May it be widely read.
      I heard that !

      In my opinion, the single most telling piece of evidence that shows how poorly we're manifesting our call to care for animals is the recent creation of factory farms. Over the last century we have, to a large degree, reduced farm animals to commercialized commodities whose only value is found in how efficiently we can produce and slaughter them for profit. Consequently, more than 26 billion animals each year are forced to live in miserable, overcrowded warehouses, where there is absolutely nothing natural about their existence and where they are subjected to barbaric, painful, industrial procedures.
      This is a far cry from what God meant when he told us to exercise "dominion."
      (Pastor Greg Boyd.)

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      Indirect References

      Doesn't anyone else find it odd and suspect that the Son of God comes to earth and the only external disinterested references are second hand and indirect?

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Do you mean it's from the outside which are unbelievers' observations, at that point in time ? Naturally they would be regarded as second hand ones.

      In my opinion, the single most telling piece of evidence that shows how poorly we're manifesting our call to care for animals is the recent creation of factory farms. Over the last century we have, to a large degree, reduced farm animals to commercialized commodities whose only value is found in how efficiently we can produce and slaughter them for profit. Consequently, more than 26 billion animals each year are forced to live in miserable, overcrowded warehouses, where there is absolutely nothing natural about their existence and where they are subjected to barbaric, painful, industrial procedures.
      This is a far cry from what God meant when he told us to exercise "dominion."
      (Pastor Greg Boyd.)

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      Re: Indirect References

      Quote Originally posted by iceage View Post
      Doesn't anyone else find it odd and suspect that the Son of God comes to earth and the only external disinterested references are second hand and indirect?
      in that day and age, the only external references were by definition second-hand and indirect.

      otherwise, they would not have been external.

      disinterested sources would have been nearly nonexistent.
      why?

      we in this age tend to forget that literacy as well as writing materials were much scarcer in ancient societies than they are today.
      hence, the only people likely to write about things are those with access to writing resources, ie the educated wealthy classes.
      they also have to care enough about something to write about it.
      naturally, the only real reason to care about Christ and and Christianity would be to support or oppose the movement.
      guess what we have.
      writings by supporters and writings by opposers.
      significantly, only a few of the more notable writings are by opposers.
      significantly, the opposing writings are second-hand and indirect.

      clue, anyone?
      “The mystery of the incarnation of the Lord is the key to all the arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward [principles] of created things, while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything.” -St. Maximus the Confessor

      "I would join countless numbers of evangelical Protestants and say I have come to know Christ with fulfilling and life-changing effects and daily witness His grace and leadership in my life. But just because God in His grace and mercy has met us where we are and adapted Himself to our unique cultural and religious circumstances in no way means He has abandoned His original plan. God does not contradict Himself. Truth is intolerant, and truth is found in the Church’s living and Holy Tradition. It is my growing conviction that only a strong living Tradition can protect us from the corrosive and destructive forces of modern life, the insidious and deceptive effects of modern pluralism, and the disheartening and confusing proliferation of religious opinions...What are we to do with this "cloud of witnesses," this Holy Tradition through which they live and speak with such clarity and certitude? Well, for me there seems to be only one logical response. I must turn to the Church and its sacred Tradition; I must listen humbly and be instructed. I cannot let God’s marvelous blessings of the past blind me to what I have missed or deter me from that to which He would lead me still. I must return home to Orthodoxy." Rev. Dorraine S. Snogren, The Road That Leads Home

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Yes ! Thank you, Lance Q/Barker.

      You said what I wanted to say but couldn't.....manage....to...come up with..it !

      In my opinion, the single most telling piece of evidence that shows how poorly we're manifesting our call to care for animals is the recent creation of factory farms. Over the last century we have, to a large degree, reduced farm animals to commercialized commodities whose only value is found in how efficiently we can produce and slaughter them for profit. Consequently, more than 26 billion animals each year are forced to live in miserable, overcrowded warehouses, where there is absolutely nothing natural about their existence and where they are subjected to barbaric, painful, industrial procedures.
      This is a far cry from what God meant when he told us to exercise "dominion."
      (Pastor Greg Boyd.)

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      Re: OUR FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: Evidence for Jesus from Probe Ministries

      Quote Originally posted by LA. ghariyal View Post
      Yes ! Thank you, Lance Q/Barker.

      You said what I wanted to say but couldn't.....manage....to...come up with..it !
      aww....thanks!
      “The mystery of the incarnation of the Lord is the key to all the arcane symbolism and typology in the Scriptures, and in addition gives us knowledge of created things, both visible and intelligible. He who apprehends the mystery of the cross and the burial apprehends the inward [principles] of created things, while he who is initiated into the inexpressible power of the resurrection apprehends the purpose for which God first established everything.” -St. Maximus the Confessor

      "I would join countless numbers of evangelical Protestants and say I have come to know Christ with fulfilling and life-changing effects and daily witness His grace and leadership in my life. But just because God in His grace and mercy has met us where we are and adapted Himself to our unique cultural and religious circumstances in no way means He has abandoned His original plan. God does not contradict Himself. Truth is intolerant, and truth is found in the Church’s living and Holy Tradition. It is my growing conviction that only a strong living Tradition can protect us from the corrosive and destructive forces of modern life, the insidious and deceptive effects of modern pluralism, and the disheartening and confusing proliferation of religious opinions...What are we to do with this "cloud of witnesses," this Holy Tradition through which they live and speak with such clarity and certitude? Well, for me there seems to be only one logical response. I must turn to the Church and its sacred Tradition; I must listen humbly and be instructed. I cannot let God’s marvelous blessings of the past blind me to what I have missed or deter me from that to which He would lead me still. I must return home to Orthodoxy." Rev. Dorraine S. Snogren, The Road That Leads Home

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