Understanding Life, is a lead to Understanding God.

[Vivian]

Mickiel,

It sounds like you are saying that God created us sick, so that he could make us well?

To me, this is just as perverted as saying that God created us sick so he could make some well and some suffer for all eternity.

Why does it have to be that God created us sick? Maybe something else is going on that neither you nor traditional Christianity wants to see or is capable of seeing, at least yet.


Viv

[mickiel]

Mickiel,

It sounds like you are saying that God created us sick, so that he could make us well?

To me, this is just as perverted as saying that God created us sick so he could make some well and some suffer for all eternity.

Why does it have to be that God created us sick? Maybe something else is going on that neither you nor traditional Christianity wants to see or is capable of seeing, at least yet.


Viv

Well it may sound perverted , if your understanding is based on perverted learning, and I understand that kind of learning. There are many things to consider in comming to grips with this. I have not stated that God made SOME sick, as you have somehow pulled from what I plainly wrote, I said he made ALL sick, not some.Consider Romans 11:32, "For God has shut up ALL into disobedience, so that he might show Mercy to All." The teaching here is why I believe what I said, I am not believing something outside of Gods word. This is not perversion, its simple plain truth. Now the depths of why God has done this, is just misunderstood or not believed.

No, it is not me who has perverted views, I simply believe what I plainly read in Scripture. Consider also Galations 3:22, " But THE SCRIPTURE, ( or Gods Word), has SHUT ALL MEN under sin, that the promise of grace will be given to those who believe." And I have discovered that its just not those who believe, but those who do not believe.

Now I already know that I cannot teach a Christian the bible, they see somethingelse, so I make no effort to do that, but I will explain myself, I owe any question that. In Acts 14:16, God PERMITS all the generations and nations to " Go their own Way", and that within itself is a curse from him. The worse thing God can do to a human, is permit them to go their own Way. But God demonstrates his own Love for humans, in that while we ARE YET sinners, locked and shut up in it by him, Christ died for ALL of us, this is stated in Romans 5:8.

Now although I am tempted to give a lengthy bible study on more scriptures that show this, I know from experience in speaking with Christians, it is just useless. Why Give 50 verses in proof, if the first 2 or 3 is not believed or understood?

If you are not Christian, then excuse my assumption. We are helpless, and Jesus died FOR THE UNGODLY, NOT for just believers, Rom.5:6. Thats WHY Jesus had to die, because God locked humanity into sin from its conception. His death UNLOCKED our destiny to live with God.

Peace.

[Vivian]

Well it may sound perverted , if your understanding is based on perverted learning, and I understand that kind of learning. There are many things to consider in comming to grips with this. I have not stated that God made SOME sick, as you have somehow pulled from what I plainly wrote, I said he made ALL sick, not some.Consider Romans 11:32, "For God has shut up ALL into disobedience, so that he might show Mercy to All." The teaching here is why I believe what I said, I am not believing something outside of Gods word. This is not perversion, its simple plain truth. Now the depths of why God has done this, is just misunderstood or not believed.

It sounds as though you have had some sort of inner experience telling you that God made all sick (and yes, I did get that from your post, please reread what I said).

If so, I understand why you want to hold to this. The picture is bigger than that though - which will be revealed to you if you do not hold to what you feel you presently know and let your inner teacher guide you even further into right understanding.

Something that might help is realizing that the verses you have selected to prove your point, don’t really say what you claim they say.

Let us look at them…

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

Here, Paul does not say that all - meaning every human - has been committed to disobedience, but THEM ALL. And them all is referring to Israel. In other words Israel was committed to disobedience so that all who were being touched by the message of Jesus (or even all of humanity) could obtain mercy. And these same them (Israel) that were committed to disobedience will also some day obtain mercy.

This verse is not about all of humanity, but Israel, Paul even saying that all of Israel will eventually be saved.

If you see something else in these words – such as when Paul speaks of Israel he really means all of humanity - but that example would not jive with the logic of these verses – then please do share.

No, it is not me who has perverted views, I simply believe what I plainly read in Scripture. Consider also Galations 3:22, " But THE SCRIPTURE, ( or Gods Word), has SHUT ALL MEN under sin, that the promise of grace will be given to those who believe." And I have discovered that its just not those who believe, but those who do not believe.

And then this verse too…

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Two things, humanity was sinners long before Scripture existed, so Paul is definitely not saying that through Scripture, God has made all men sick.

If we look elsewhere, what Paul is meaning here is better explained…

Romans 9
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. (NIV by the law we are made conscious of our sin.)

According to Scripture, it itself did not make all men sick nor even some men sick, but all mens’ sickness is revealed in Scritpure – what is already there is seen.

Now I already know that I cannot teach a Christian the bible, they see somethingelse, so I make no effort to do that, but I will explain myself, I owe any question that. In Acts 14:16, God PERMITS all the generations and nations to " Go their own Way", and that within itself is a curse from him. The worse thing God can do to a human, is permit them to go their own Way. But God demonstrates his own Love for humans, in that while we ARE YET sinners, locked and shut up in it by him, Christ died for ALL of us, this is stated in Romans 5:8.

Now although I am tempted to give a lengthy bible study on more scriptures that show this, I know from experience in speaking with Christians, it is just useless. Why Give 50 verses in proof, if the first 2 or 3 is not believed or understood?

If you are not Christian, then excuse my assumption. We are helpless, and Jesus died FOR THE UNGODLY, NOT for just believers, Rom.5:6. Thats WHY Jesus had to die, because God locked humanity into sin from its conception. His death UNLOCKED our destiny to live with God.

Peace.

The only issue I take is the idea that God or Scripture purposely made all men sick. The rest of what you offer is workable, moving in the right direction.

What I will offer to you is that when God gives us Revelation, the energy of the Revelation is love and mercy, and compassion and goodness, and not judgment and condemnation. So it could be that you are feeling that there is only love and compassion for our sick condition - assuming that is because God made us that way.

You then search through scripture to verify this feeling, but your verification has holes in it.

I offer that while God allowed us to become sick, it was by our free will choice, but God holds no judgment or condemnation for us, but understanding, compassion, knowledge and most importantly love – all that is given is meant to guide us back Home.


[I think that you have some good solid understanding and would like to see your posts here make an impact, but as long as you hold to an obvious misinterpretation of scripture - the others here will write you off. If you want to be taken seriously, do your homework!]


Also, Christians would not consider me Christian, but I consider myself a follower of Christ, so listed myself as Christian in my profile.




Viv

[mickiel]

Something that might help is realizing that the verses you have selected to prove your point, don’t really say what you claim they say.

This verse is not about all of humanity, but Israel, Paul even saying that all of Israel will eventually be saved.

If you see something else in these words – such as when Paul speaks of Israel he really means all of humanity - but that example would not jive with the logic of these verses – then please do share.
Two things, humanity was sinners long before Scripture existed, so Paul is definitely not saying that through Scripture, God has made all men sick.

If we look elsewhere, what Paul is meaning here is better explained…
According to Scripture, it itself did not make all men sick nor even some men sick, but all mens’ sickness is revealed in Scritpure – what is already there is seen.Quote.


Greetings Viv,

Isreal was chosen by God as an example of what the whole human race was like, and they do represent what God will do with everyone, eventually. They were not singled out for Salvation above and beyond everyonelse. Isreal is a " Type of All Humanity", and that itself is another study. Once seen, then the bible reader will know that anywhere Isreal is mentioned, it types all of humanity, not just a single race of people. If that is not understood correctly, then much will be missed in Scripture. Also humanity didnot exist before Scripture, the Scripture is the written word of God, men simply were inspired to write what was in Gods mind far before we were created, and the written word, embodies the Living Word, Christ himself, Gods annointed Spokesman, who existed before we did any writting of the Bible, that also needs to be understood. My translation does not render " God has shut THEM all", it renders God has Shut All up into disobedience. But certain Christian teachings have a problem with the biblical use of the word " All", because its so inculsive, Christian doctrine is " Exclusive", it tends to Limit Salvation and multiply Damnation, and its followers feed into that limited atonement mentality.

Paul understood this in his writtings. In Romans 5:18;" So then as through one transgression there resulted CONDEMNATION to ALL men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted Justification of LIFE to ALL Men." The Christian mentality can very easily see the ALL men being Condemed in this verse, because that is the root of their hearts desire. But they cannot see the latter part of same verse that gives Salvation to All men, because it is not their belief, not their desire for all to be saved, not of their Faith, and they certainly don't think God desires to save everyone, or holds the capacity to do so.

Now, why would God condemn a whole race of comming humans, billions of them, just because of one mans Sin? Thats not fair, its ignorant and unjust. No, God " Set up that one man to sin", its what he wanted to happen, and its exactly what did happen. And that is covered in the post on the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Quote;
The only issue I take is the idea that God or Scripture purposely made all men sick. The rest of what you offer is workable, moving in the right direction.

What I will offer to you is that when God gives us Revelation, the energy of the Revelation is love and mercy, and compassion and goodness, and not judgment and condemnation. So it could be that you are feeling that there is only love and compassion for our sick condition - assuming that is because God made us that way.

You then search through scripture to verify this feeling, but your verification has holes in it.

I offer that while God allowed us to become sick, it was by our free will choice, but God holds no judgment or condemnation for us, but understanding, compassion, knowledge and most importantly love – all that is given is meant to guide us back Home.


[I think that you have some good solid understanding and would like to see your posts here make an impact, but as long as you hold to an obvious misinterpretation of scripture - the others here will write you off. If you want to be taken seriously, do your homework!]



Viv

I am not concerned with making an impact here, and it matters not to me who writes me off. I am not fishing for agreement, nor looking for followers to impact. Free will is an illusion and inaccurate, just misunderstood complettely. We are not sinners by choice, sin was placed in our environment by God himself. I post as a witness to what I personally believe, and for no other reason than that. God planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good AND Evil in the garden of Eden. He KNEW this would infect all of humanity. He Created the Good and Evil, and he PLANTED it here on earth.

And this is NOT bad news, it perfectly pictures why the Salvation of all is his intent and pure will.

Anyhow, Peace to you, although we see differently.

[mickiel]

If I may continue with Understanding Life itself, is a Key to Understanding God. I aploigise for being sidetracked by some questions from Christians, but I believe in answering anything asked of me, if I have an answer to give. Often I find that Christians are really more often a sidetracking influence to truth, than a vehicle toward the truth. But I respect their zeal, I just disagree with their doctrinal Understanding, which is often the root of our communication.

I want to go into Life for a bit, and what it is on the human Level. The driveshaft of Life, as we understand it, is Flagellum. It is the organ of Locomotion in Protozoa, and it exist in our 3 known forms of Life. Bacterial Flagellum has no random mutation, and even science cannot give it an orgin in their random theorys of evolution, and I will come back to this later.

Flagellum has many componants that fit perfectly in its structure as a whole, and cannot exist if any one of the many componants were missing. It is far too well ordered to have an orgin in random theory. God has created cells of Life, and tiny componants that construct our immune system, that are the backbone of not just human life, but all Life on Earth.

Salvation itself is simular to this, in that God designed it to be a multicomplex series of stages, that will result in Eternal Spirit Life, which is what Real Life is. What we see reflected in a mirror is not real Life, its only a reflection of Life. The physical world is simular, it is only a reflection of what true Spiritual Life is in another complettely different dimension. There is nothing any random set of occurances can do that would create Life. Conversely, there is nothing any religous human can do, to gain eternal Spiritual Salvation.

Just as God gave Life to this physical Universe that we know, only he can give Eternal Spiritual Life, as we obviously don't know it.

And I want to go into this most fascinating truth.

Peace.

[Chappie]

Mickiel:
Excellant, revelant and informing discertations from top to bottom... I am impressed...