the abortion debate..Harry versus zap

[pastor_harry]

Sparko,

Sorry for overstressing your eyeballs. you know, i'm new in here, not very familiar with space limitations and was just trying to conserve space.

In any case, Scripture is clear that Adam did not become a living soul until god breathed in his nostrils..So , you may be known to god before you are in the womb( preconception) but you are not an independent living soul until you take your first breath as per scripture.

The real question ,Sparko, is when does the ensoulment takes place? does the soul enters the Zygote along side the sperm and the egg? does the egg have a soul waiting to be embodied upon fertilization? does the sperm carries within it a soul ? if that's the case, how would you account for the millions of sperms that get wasted, or the many eggs that get discharged thru women's menstrual cycle?!!!!! I mean this would be a massive slaughter and perhaps christians should carry on proper burials for all those wasted sperms and eggs!!!!!!

[pastor_harry]

lmao Philosophickle....what you're saying to your brethrens Philo, is that get out before their behinds get handed to them on a silver platter...hehehehe....


Well i hope they heed your warnings....

[joel]

my premise is that the claim"life starts at the moment of conception" is totally erroneous even according to the bible

Are you claiming:
1) The Bible does not say that "life starts at the moment of conception"
or
2) "life starts at the moment of conception" is irreconcilable with the Bible?
Those are two different promises. (1) could be true but (2) false.

..I think it would be blasphemous for christians to make such a claim because in doing so they're actually empowering human sexual intercourse by giving it the power of creating life- not their god-

At most it would be the power of transmitting/reproducing life. That's different than creating life.

which actually attest to the fact that a sperm and an egg is indeed what produce a new cell which is a combination of the 2..

You are taking an unreasonably naturalistic view with regard to Christianity.
I can kick a ball and it moves. That does not mean "I have the power of moving the ball, not God."

Taking christians to task on their beliefs, their bible clearly states that god breathed into Adam's nostrils and man became a living being..this demonstrates that Adam -who was already formed as a human body beforehand- had no life in him until his breathing started...this proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a fetus in the womb is not to be considered a living being until it is really and independently a BREATHING human being.. For some christians to say that since the woman is a living breathing person, that extends to the fetus, it is nothing more than circular reasoning.

First of all, that passage only says how human life was started. That says nothing about how it is reproduced. Secondly, even a human fetus needs oxygen to live and grow. (The fetus' body also needs to eliminate the resulting carbon dioxide--this is called respiration.) Take away the fetus' oxygen or prevent the removal of carbon dioxide, and it will die.

Giving christians the benefit of the doubt, if their god has giving the fetus life from the moment of conception, why is it if the woman dies, the fetus will also follow? this alone proves that fetuses are not seperate and independent individuals because if they were , their lives should continue on since-according to christians - their god has given them lives of their own.

Why is it if my pilot dies at the wrong moment, everyone on board the plane will follow? Hasn't God given them lives of their own? That does not prove that the passengers are not separate and independent individuals.

Moreover, in many cases, some babies are even born dead , or died soon after birth for their inability to breathe...how can a christian consider that to be a living being?!!!! I rest my case your honor...

Umm, you aren't making any sense there. If a baby is dead, then it is not a living being. What does that have to do with anything?

[zap_30jeanluc]

Harry, I was dealing with the very first part of your post. If you fear examination of your position say so now...or respond to the SPECIFIC question being posed.

You started with a number of assumptions, all based on a literal reading of the Old Testament. I addressed the first part. To show I WAS sticking to the subject here's some beautiful copy/pasting:

YOU: "I think it would be blasphemous for christians to make such a claim because in doing so they're actually empowering human sexual intercourse by giving it the power of creating life."

ME: "Your premise is that God could not set in place a system and design such that a life form can replicate itself through offspring. Please correct me if I'm wrong."

YOU: "Stick to the subject!!"

Now Harry, perhaps we can take this a piece at a time and continue forward. It would seem I AM sticking to the subject and need an answer. Could God create a system of life in which He did not have to do all of the subsequent creating? ie: if God has the power to create all this, why can't He create life forms that can reproduce?



Please respond.

Zap

P.S. There's an old gag that literalists are like pigeons on a chess board: they knock the pieces over and crap on the board, then fly away claiming victory. No thought or examination required. Your next post Harry should be a "yes" or "no" to my question with an accompanying explanation.

[Teallaura]

Teallaura...you're contradicting yourself as well as your scripture...you quoted the Bible as saying that god knew Jeremiah even BEFORE he was in the womb, then you went back and said that scripture does not claim that earthly life begins preconception...Now , which one is it?

Why do you presume that the preconception soul is Earthly? Substitute 'biologic' is you prefer - make no difference. That God foreknows the soul is not the same as saying the soul is Earthly. That would be the material world - souls aren't material. There's no contradiction, other than with your silly 'God says it has to be breathing to be living' premise. Since even zygotes respirate the breathing issue is silly on its face. If you insist on air, well, Sparko already proved you wrong there - not to mention that Scripture clearly regards fish as living but last I looked they don't breath air.

Give it up - your premise is silly.

[lilpixieofterror]

*still waits for harry to prove his assertions*

How long do I have to wait?

[Teallaura]

Just until Satan perfects his sit-spin....

[Sparko]

Sparko,

Sorry for overstressing your eyeballs. you know, i'm new in here, not very familiar with space limitations and was just trying to conserve space.

In any case, Scripture is clear that Adam did not become a living soul until god breathed in his nostrils..So , you may be known to god before you are in the womb( preconception) but you are not an independent living soul until you take your first breath as per scripture.

The real question ,Sparko, is when does the ensoulment takes place? does the soul enters the Zygote along side the sperm and the egg? does the egg have a soul waiting to be embodied upon fertilization? does the sperm carries within it a soul ? if that's the case, how would you account for the millions of sperms that get wasted, or the many eggs that get discharged thru women's menstrual cycle?!!!!! I mean this would be a massive slaughter and perhaps christians should carry on proper burials for all those wasted sperms and eggs!!!!!!

You can't use Adam as your example. Adam was never IN A WOMB. He was made from dirt. Were YOU made from dirt, harry? Are fetuses in the womb made of dirt?

[Glenn P]

:devilpuke:

[Clarice]

You can't use Adam as your example. Adam was never IN A WOMB. He was made from dirt. Were YOU made from dirt, harry? Are fetuses in the womb made of dirt?

Yes!

Everything of this world is made from dirt.

Think about it, Sparko.

Your entire body is made from dirt.



C

[Sparko]

Yes!

Everything of this world is made from dirt.

Think about it, Sparko.

Your entire body is made from dirt.



C

well then stay out of the rain clarice or you will wash away in a mud puddle.

[Xmansmommy]

Pastor Harry, Zapinator!

[pastor_harry]

Zap,

This was supposed to be a debate pertaining to abortion!!!!!

Apparently you have chosen to change the subject and avoided agreeing or disagreeing with my premise that life starts at the moment of conception is unbiblical..

That's ok. There's no law against cowardness..

It looks like you have a premise of your own (unrelated to mine) stating that your god could set in place a system and design such that a life form can replicate itself through offspring..

This, of course, is a matter of faith on your part unsupported by any evidence. To say that god behind it all and that i have no proof that he isn't, all you're introducing to me is "god of the gaps"(if there are any).

All i know, is that none of the modern scientific theories and discoveries in Cosmology, Quantum physics, Evolution, Physical plaentology, Pshycology, Genetics and Biology, none of it opens a door or even a small crack from which your god can be recognized.

Yes you believe that your god is all powerful capable of everything, but the world around us disagrees with that..1+1=2 and not even your all powerful invisible god can change that equation.
If i put 1 apple next to another i end up with 2 apples and no god can end up with more or less apples.(Please do not point out to me how Jesus fed 5000 people with a can of sardines).

This clearly demonstrates that what you believe to be god is subject to the laws of physics and mathematics..These laws cannot change simply because they're not magically created.

As science advances, religion retreats and feels threatened. Therefore, Zap, you, as a member of the religious forces have only 1 path of 2 to follow:


1- Swallow what you cannot disprove

or

2-Dodge it


Please tell us with all honesty which path you have chosen...Tahnk you!



Harry...........

[tezcatlipoca]

I am confused. This is a debate? I left Kansas for this?

[lilpixieofterror]

Zap,

This was supposed to be a debate pertaining to abortion!!!!!

Apparently you have chosen to change the subject and avoided agreeing or disagreeing with my premise that life starts at the moment of conception is unbiblical..

He is showing that you're in error harry, don't cry because you're too stupid/ignorant to understand what you've been told. Now I'm still waiting for you to prove your assertions or you can just leave quietly before you make an even bigger fool of yourself.

ll i know, is that none of the modern scientific theories and discoveries in Cosmology, Quantum physics, Evolution, Physical plaentology, Pshycology, Genetics and Biology, none of it opens a door or even a small crack from which your god can be recognized.

You do know that many of us are either science geeks, science majors, or degreed scientist. right? I don't mind discussing Evolution or biology with you, in fact... the fathers of many of these sciences are Christians, go look up who the father of modern Genetics is sometime. Now for the part that it doesn't open a crack, it does in fact Quantum physics does an even better job of allowing miracles and things of that nature then Newton physics does, you should really go read Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig sometime.

Yes you believe that your god is all powerful capable of everything, but the world around us disagrees with that..1+1=2 and not even your all powerful invisible god can change that equation.

Because, we feel that God can do anything that is logically possible. You really should try to read Christian theology before you make a fool of yourself by saying such stupid things as the above. Christians who know what they are talking about do not say that God can do the logically impossible, that is not what all powerful means. Might I suggest you read some Thomas Aquians before you come back and start up such nonsense as above?

If i put 1 apple next to another i end up with 2 apples and no god can end up with more or less apples.(Please do not point out to me how Jesus fed 5000 people with a can of sardines).

That's because God did a thing known as a miracle. He is the creator of the universe, he created the universe out of nothing, so it is nothing for me to believe that God can create food where before there was some bread and a fish.

This clearly demonstrates that what you believe to be god is subject to the laws of physics and mathematics..These laws cannot change simply because they're not magically created.

Did God create the universe from nothing? Yes. If he can create the universe from nothing, why can't he create enough food to feed 5,000 people? It seems that you're the one wanting to limit God, if you want to, I'll discuss why you're comparing apples with oranges here.

1- Swallow what you cannot disprove

or

2-Dodge it


Please tell us with all honesty which path you have chosen...Tahnk you!

You seem to far over estimate your own abilities. Poor man, you're about to get the intellectual beating of your life at our hands.

:pixie: