Rstrats' Belief discussion (split from "Is anyone having trouble believing"

[rstrats]

Moderator Notice

I've split this part of the discussion from the "Is anyone having trouble believing..." thread as it was developing as a tangent to M. Talkingsworth's questions. It wasn't appropriate to allow the thread to change into a general discussion about personal belief

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interrapax,

re: “But in my experience it comes down to being like a child again and just believe...”


Are you implying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

[rstrats]

Sparko,

You say: “Even the bible gives an example of believing and doubting at the same time.” and you reference Mark 9:23 as support for that statement. Since a person cannot believe - be convinced that something is and at the same time believe that that same something is not, the father in the verse has to be referring to two different beliefs.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

You say: “Even the bible gives an example of believing and doubting at the same time.” and you reference Mark 9:23 as support for that statement. Since a person cannot believe - be convinced that something is and at the same time believe that that same something is not, the father in the verse has to be referring to two different beliefs.

its obvious he is saying "I believe in you Jesus that you can save my son, but I still have my doubts, help me"

He is afraid Jesus can't heal him, but he has seen and heard of Jesus healing others.

You are reading it way too literally. Remember you are reading a translation.

[rstrats]

Sparko,

You say that I am reading Mark 9:24 way too literally. You say that I should understand it to be saying; “I believe in you Jesus that you can save my son, but I still have my doubts...” I’m sorry, but I don’t see how that is any different. A person cannot legitimately say that they believe - are convinced - that something can be done and at the same time say that they don’t believe - are not convinced - that that same something can be done.

[rhutchin]

interrapax,

re: “But in my experience it comes down to being like a child again and just believe...”


Are you implying that you think that a person has the ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true?

To say that a child "believes" in the same sense that an adult is called to believe is probably not possible.

A child "accepts" that which he knows because his acceptance has not been tainted by experience. A child accepts whatever people tell him unless he has learned from experience that he should not.

We talk about becoming like a child but the reality is that we cannot. We believe subject to what we know and experience. An adult may choose to "believe" something contrary to his experiences, but it is not the same as a child's acceptance of that something with which he has had no experience.

[Sparko]

Sparko,

You say that I am reading Mark 9:24 way too literally. You say that I should understand it to be saying; “I believe in you Jesus that you can save my son, but I still have my doubts...” I’m sorry, but I don’t see how that is any different. A person cannot legitimately say that they believe - are convinced - that something can be done and at the same time say that they don’t believe - are not convinced - that that same something can be done.

there are levels and degrees of belief rstrats. are you telling me you have no doubts ever?

if so your faith must be some sort of cartoon faith.

[rstrats]

Sparko,

re: “there are levels and degrees of belief...”

What is your definition of “to believe” as you are using it in this discussion?


re: “are you telling me you have no doubts ever?”

Of course not. Where have I told you that?

[rstrats]

rhutchin,

re: “An adult may choose to ‘believe’ something contrary to his experiences...”


If you are saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[Sparko]

Sparko,

re: “there are levels and degrees of belief...”

What is your definition of “to believe” as you are using it in this discussion?


re: “are you telling me you have no doubts ever?”

Of course not. Where have I told you that?

so if you have doubts then that must mean you dont believe, eh? because that is what you are saying. doubt is a degree of unbelief. so if belief and unbelief can't coexist then you either can't have doubts or are an unbeliever, according to your argument.

The only logical explanation is that when the guy was talking to Jesus he was using "unbelief" to mean he had doubts, but he trusted Christ.

Its simple. You are making it way to complicated by trying to read every word literally.


In the greek the word used there is apistia which can mean a variety of things, including:

2. unfaithfulness, faithless
3. want of faith, unbelief
4. weakness of faith

If you dont think "weakness of faith" = doubt, then you need to do some studying

[rhutchin]

rhutchin,

re: “An adult may choose to ‘believe’ something contrary to his experiences...”


If you are saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, perhaps you can help me. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person. Since you seem to be saying that you can consciously CHOOSE to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Maybe you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

Let's start with this. A person may eat organic foods because they "believe" that organic foods protect against cancer (I even have a relative like this). So, why would a person believe that eating organic foods protects against cancer? Somewhere along the line, they read something about eating organic foods and cancer. Other people read this same information and don't eat organic foods. In this case, the person who is very concerned about getting cancer chooses (or is heavily inclined) to believe that eating organic foods will help prevent them getting cancer so they then choose to eat organic foods.

Given that example, we can look at people and observe the things that they do and conclude that they things they do reflect the things they believe. I person who exercises religiously believes something about exercise. A person who invests in an IRA believes something. People choose to believe based on the information available to them.

A person who has never read the Bible (or been told anything about what it says) never gains that information that would allow them to believe what the Bible says. A person who reads the Bible can then choose to believe what he reads. A person may even read the Encyclopedia about leprechauns and come to the conclusion that they actually exist and belief they exist (a child might easily do this).

Believing is nothing more than accepting the truth of something and then that belief expresses itself in the actions of a person. The "belief" comes from a person's evaluation of the information that he gathers. Thus, a person chooses what he will believe.

[rstrats]

Sparko,

re: “so if you have doubts then that must mean you dont believe, eh?”


That is correct. For example, I doubt that it is possible for me to become a more compassionate person which means that I don’t believe that it is possible.


re: “The only logical explanation is that when the guy was talking to Jesus he was using ‘unbelief’ to mean he had doubts, but he trusted Christ.”

But the doubt - unbelief - that he had could not be referring to the thing that he said he believed in.


BTW, I would still like to know your definition of “to believe”.

[rstrats]

rhutchin,

re: “Let's start with this. “

With all due respect, I would prefer to start with what I asked you to do - demonstrate your ability to consciously CHOOSE to believe things. I don’t think that it can be done. I’ve never been able to do it, and so far no one that I have asked has ever demonstrated that they can either. However, if it can be done, I would really like to know how.

You say that people choose to believe based on the information available to them. If beliefs can be obtained simply by conscious CHOICE, then information or evidence is not necessary - prudent in certain cases, but not necessary. But even if it were, what would be the indicator that would allow you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about ‘X’ and while I still do not believe that ‘X’ exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that ‘X’ exists and - poof - I now believe that X’ exists?

Again, I suggest that you use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your ability and technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?

[rstrats]

rhutchin,

re: “Believing is nothing more than accepting the truth of something...”


Are you saying that there are no beliefs with regard to things that in reality are not true?

[rstrats]

stradele,

re: “Maybe you can explain to me what they really are if they aren't beliefs...”


I don’t know what they are, but they cannot be beliefs. A belief is a conviction that someone or something does or doesn’t exist, or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true. If you have doubts with regard to that someone, something or proposition, then you do not have a conviction.