God's will vs. Man's will?

[Ninjalan]

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

It didn't sound quite right to me, but then again I've been wrong before. What does everyone think?

[DukeOfEastaboga]

Well even though God is all good, what stops Him form choosing to be evil??

[Red Wine]

It seems there's alot we can do with the phrase 'in a sense'. In a sense Jesus was weaker than men, who put Him to death. Or in a sense, my cat orders my life around her feeding time, hence she is my master. I personally don't think your friend's argument against free will is strong in this way.

[spitndirt]

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

It didn't sound quite right to me, but then again I've been wrong before. What does everyone think?

The fact that we have 'will' is undeniable. I don't see a need to add the term 'free' to it.....unless we limit this term to mean 'free to seek God's favor in and through His Son'. What else, really, is the human will for except that he be credited with actively believing or actively not believing? While we are free to believe and live we are not free to evade this choice. If we choose to ignore God's offer of life through Jesus we are choosing against it by default. Really, the Gospel of Christ holds all men captive to respond to God. There is no escaping this fact.

In short, man's will is not stronger than God's. If it were God couldn't bring all of His Word to fruition....which would mean that the end of our faith is uncertain.

My thoughts....

[infide]

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

It didn't sound quite right to me, but then again I've been wrong before. What does everyone think?

I am not sure exactly how your friend's argument holds, though. I mean - how, exactly, is man's will greater if God wills man's free will into existence?

It seems quite obviously the other way around, since, the will of man is dependent on the will of God, in every sense of the word.

Perhaps what he is getting at is that God sort of "gives up" control over individual acts of the creature's will. That is quite true. But that hardly means anything about man's will being greater - God could have a Universe where God has absolute control. But if God makes free creatures, then God does not want such a Universe.

And since Omnipotence is concerned with God having the power to actualize any state of affairs, then such a scenario poses no threat to the doctrine of Omnipotence - God very well could, as I said, create such a Universe, or override the free will of man, but God chooses not to.

Peace,
JD

[infide]

The fact that we have 'will' is undeniable. I don't see a need to add the term 'free' to it.....unless we limit this term to mean 'free to seek God's favor in and through His Son'. What else, really, is the human will for except that he be credited with actively believing or actively not believing? While we are free to believe and live we are not free to evade this choice. If we choose to ignore God's offer of life through Jesus we are choosing against it by default. Really, the Gospel of Christ holds all men captive to respond to God. There is no escaping this fact.

There is a lot more to human life than belief or nonbelief.

Take, for example, the moral dimension of human actions. Free will is undeniably crucial for such a thing to be meaningful in any significant sense.

Peace,
JD

[Ninjalan]

His argument wasn't so much that people do not have will, or that man's will is greater than God's if Calvinism is false, but that if Calvinism is false God would be placing man's will higher than his own.

This is what I find to be fishy.

[Progeny]

His argument wasn't so much that people do not have will, or that man's will is greater than God's if Calvinism is false, but that if Calvinism is false God would be placing man's will higher than his own.

This is what I find to be fishy.

Well, he's sort of accurate. Now, we're assuming that God is selfless, yes? Or at least, a really nice guy (or entity or omnipotent being or what have you). In this case, I would say that God places Man's will equal with his own.

This is not to say that he would let us have sweeping powers, but rather that we are free to make whichever choices we please within the situations we find ourselves in, as is He. God appreciates our free will as much as he appreciates his own... He's the one who made our will in the first place, one would think he would value it.

Now, of course, I can't divine the mind of God or anything, but that's how I interpret it. God has just as much free will as we do. The quintessential difference is that he happens to be omnipotent. Therefore, he is able to do considerably more with his will than we are.

[Whipartist]

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

It didn't sound quite right to me, but then again I've been wrong before. What does everyone think?

So in your friend's opinion God becomes entirely responsible for all evil that man has ever committed, since man had no free will to choose that evil in the first place.... I guess that's less repulsive to him than the idea that man's will could become too "great." Or perhaps he's just predetermined to believe in such nonsense? Nah..., he chooses to, just as I choose to reject it. It's abhorant.

[Whipartist]

His argument wasn't so much that people do not have will, or that man's will is greater than God's if Calvinism is false, but that if Calvinism is false God would be placing man's will higher than his own.

This is what I find to be fishy.

In essence your friend is making a denial that God created man in His own image and likeness. Perhaps a denial of creation itself. His views render creation nothing more than God's video game, with no life. In the interest of exalting the greatness of God's will, he denies God's creative ability and potential.

[Michael T.]

Omnicron,

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

The term “free-will” is illogical and an oxymoron, which is why it’s preferable, accurate and also logical to state that God created Man with “an ability of choice.”

But Man’s * ability of choice * is limited and also compromised because (1) the range of choices available for Man to choose from are finite; i.e. limited, and (2) Man is gravely affected by the depraving effects of sin as a result of the Fall of Man [Genesis chapter 3; Romans 5:12; Romans 3:23; Romans 3:9-18, etc.].

The Bible teaches us that although Man has an ability of choice, God the Creator’s sovereign will nevertheless always takes priority over Man’s will.

God the Creator can always intervene in Man’s choices, overrule, and-or frustrate or divert Man’s will as and whenever God sovereignly chooses to do so.

Furthermore, God’s will can never be successfully resisted.

An example of the limitations which God has imposed the range of choices available to Man is in respect of salvation by grace, in which God has always reserved the causal Choice in salvation entirely and exclusively to Himself. I.e. the Choice as to who will or who will not be saved is always God’s and God’s alone. This means that we’re always dependent upon GOD; never the reverse.

[Michael T.]

Whipartist,

So in your friend's opinion God becomes entirely responsible for all evil that man has ever committed, since man had no free will to choose that evil in the first place.... I guess that's less repulsive to him than the idea that man's will could become too "great." Or perhaps he's just predetermined to believe in such nonsense? Nah..., he chooses to, just as I choose to reject it. It's abhorrent.

You seem to be unaware that it was not GOD but wilful Man who sinned in the first instance and thereby got us unto this mess [Romans 5:12].

And after Adam had sinned [Genesis chapter 3], he perversely and altogether unjustly then attempted to blame God the righteous and holy Creator for Adam’s perpetrated sin, which attempt by Adam was dishonest, cowardly, blasphemous, utterly perverse, and deceitful, as are all those who, like Adam, also dare to blame GOD for the evil which they themselves perpetrate.

So it’s necessary to be wary before you or anyone else claims that God is entirely responsible for all evil that man has ever committed because it’s altogether unjust and untrue.

In essence your friend is making a denial that God created man in His own image and likeness. Perhaps a denial of creation itself. His views render creation nothing more than God's video game, with no life. In the interest of exalting the greatness of God's will, he denies God's creative ability and potential.

No, you’re mistaken.
Because of the Fall [Genesis, ch. 3], Man lost his likeness to GOD, but it’s regained if and when a person is regenerated by the Spirit of GOD [Gospel of John 3:1-8; 2 Corinthians 5:17].

But the Fall didn’t deprive Man of his ability to make choices [which is what I assume you mean by the illogical term of “free-will.”] Ontologically, only GOD is truly * free.”

Man, being a creature and thus always dependent upon his Creator, has but limited abilities, which abilities are seriously disadvantaged by the universally-depraving effects of sin. Hence the necessity of redemption in Christ, which however is always GOD’s causal sovereign choice; i.e. not Man's.

[Whipartist]

Whipartist,



You seem to be unaware that it was not GOD but wilful Man who sinned in the first instance and thereby got us unto this mess [Romans 5:12].

And after Adam had sinned [Genesis chapter 3], he perversely and altogether unjustly then attempted to blame God the righteous and holy Creator for Adam’s perpetrated sin, which attempt by Adam was dishonest, cowardly, blasphemous, utterly perverse, and deceitful, as are all those who, like Adam, also dare to blame GOD for the evil which they themselves perpetrate.

So it’s necessary to be wary before you or anyone else claims that God is entirely responsible for all evil that man has ever committed because it’s altogether unjust and untrue.



No, you’re mistaken.
Because of the Fall [Genesis, ch. 3], Man lost his likeness to GOD, but it’s regained if and when a person is regenerated by the Spirit of GOD [Gospel of John 3:1-8; 2 Corinthians 5:17].

But the Fall didn’t deprive Man of his ability to make choices [which is what I assume you mean by the illogical term of “free-will.”] Ontologically, only GOD is truly * free.”

Man, being a creature and thus always dependent upon his Creator, has but limited abilities, which abilities are seriously disadvantaged by the universally-depraving effects of sin. Hence the necessity of redemption in Christ, which however is always GOD’s causal sovereign choice; i.e. not Man's.

You're sidestepping the discussion and not dealing with the question of the OP, nor with my own view.

[Findo]

I was chatting with a Calvinist friend of mine on Tuesday, and he made an interesting argument about the will of man that I wanted to open to the floor.

He claimed that by granting humanity free-will, God would, in a sense, letting man's will be greater than his own. My friend did not think this should be or is so, and so rejected the idea of free-will.

It didn't sound quite right to me, but then again I've been wrong before. What does everyone think?

What do you mean by "free will"?
Do you mean that man's will is entirely free from any imposing force? (and if so, how do you justify this in light of NT teaching?)
Or do you simply mean that whenever someone makes a choice they do so willingly?

[Arminian]

What do you mean by "free will"?
Do you mean that man's will is entirely free from any imposing force? (and if so, how do you justify this in light of NT teaching?)
Or do you simply mean that whenever someone makes a choice they do so willingly?

In general, the perspective is that God enables the ability to believe, but it can be resisted.