Some serious flaws in theology.

[bridgeforsale]

Before being hardened by God that pharaoh filled his own vessel with wrath.

The pharaoh always had a choice, but at the same time the pharaohs actions were inevitable. God simply knew the pharaohs psychological disposition, his inner thoughts, which allows God to know how the pharaoh would react in any given situation. All God had to do was create the right set of circumstances or plant a thought in the pharaohs head and the pharaoh would unwittingly capitulate to God's will. However, at no time can it be said that the pharaoh acted against his own will. Perhaps God had Satan whisper wicked affections in the ear of the pharaoh; however, the pharaoh had the capacity of will to resist this temptation (God simply knew he wouldn't).

The difference between this view and Calvinism might sound almost semantical but it's really not. It's important that people know despite our depravity or the many hardships we might face in life, God enables us all to choose the right path. We all have the requisite amount of free will and moral agency to be held accountable for wrongdoing and to be rewarded for righteousness.

I anticipate detractors will assert there was no way the pharaoh could have acted in a contrary fashion to the way God needed; this much is absolutely true. However, it's not because God compelled his will, it is because God knew with certainty how the pharaoh would react to a given set of circumstances. I can't stress enough the importance of teaching free will and accountability.

God is the potter. He is shaping humanity into an exceedingly perfect species. However, God's direct intervention into the affairs of mankind, I suspect, isn't as black and white as is portrayed by classic theology. Certainly upon seeking Christ we are given faith by God through the Holy Spirit. However, when it comes to actively controlling human history God acts out of temporal necessity. In fact I opine that a necessary element in God's plan for the maturation of mankind requires that the vast majority of people (elect and non-elect alike) not be manipulated in the way the pharaoh was. God doesn't hold the hand of most people and drag them into compliance with His will. In fact most people (again, elect and non-elect alike) are simply not necessary elements in God's macro plan (at least in the way the pharaoh, the prophets, or the Apostles were). We should understand that Paul, as an example, clearly had a more direct relationship with Christ than we do. Christ appeared to Paul, has He appeared to anyone here in such a direct way?

God doesn't micro-manage us. If He did we would never mature into the beings He ultimately wants us to become. Moreover, to effectuate His plan God doesn't need to micro-manage the affairs of every living soul on earth. God has a perfect understanding of human nature. As an example, let's assume arguendo that part of God's plan necessitated a war between two nations. God would have to stir the respective peoples of each of those nations to hatred toward one another. Does God need to enter the mind of every single person in those nations to accomplish this? No He does not. God has a perfect understanding of human nature. He knows by creating a certain set of circumstances (let's say an unprovoked attack by one nation upon the other) most people in the attacked nation would be stirred to hatred and will want revenge. God might very well (most likely through a surrogate like Satan) plant a thought in the right persons head (let's say the leader of the attacking nation) knowing how that leader would react. In fact God might even make sure a particular person, who had the proper disposition, would rise to leadership in the attacking nation. God understands group dynamics in the same way and uses that in accordance with His plan. For example, God knew that most Jews would not be able to comply with the old covenant law. In fact God effectively set them up for failure. However, God didn't need to enter the minds of every Jew in ancient Israel to accomplish this. Moreover, God doesn't parcel out select individuals and ensure their compliance.

Many people might think that since God loves His creation He wouldn't create calamity and war. However, this assumption is plainly false. The important thing to understand is that even when God creates calamity it is out of love. Ultimately it serves a good purpose. Since our souls are destined for eternal glory that could hardly compare with the hardships we face on earth, God has little regard for the temporal joy of our flesh. If He did would have He allowed His greatest disciples to be tortured and put to death in such horrible ways?

[Nang]

3) God actually had a plan and did not want Isreal to go and therfore hardened pharoas heart (see exod 4) so Gods plan would transpire.



Aug

"Did not want Israel to go?" What are you saying?

God actually had a plan to let Israel go, and thereby (and therefore) God hardened Pharoah's heart, to demonstrate the deliverance of Israel from Pharoah's stubborn and selfish bondage, was by the power of God alone.

Israel's escape from Pharoah's bondage, was never meant or allowed by God, to happen according to the mercy or will of that cruel master.

Nang

[bridgeforsale]

"Did not want Israel to go?" What are you saying?

God actually had a plan to let Israel go, and thereby (and therefore) God hardened Pharoah's heart, to demonstrate the deliverance of Israel from Pharoah's stubborn and selfish bondage, was by the power of God alone.

Israel's escape from Pharoah's bondage, was never meant or allowed by God, to happen according to the mercy or will of that cruel master.

Nang

I agree with you, but do you think that God birthed the pharaoh to be as wicked as he was (keeping in mind the horrible things he did or tried to do to the Hebrews in the beginning of Exodus before his hardening)? Or do you think that because God knew what kind of man the pharaoh would become He ensured the pharaoh would rise to power in Egypt and then hardened his heart by manipulating his thoughts (or perhaps in other ways) at the right time, in order to ensure His plan for the deliverance of Israel would occur?

[bridgeforsale]

aug .... you have to read my post # 196 for a better explanation of what I'm talking about.

[Nang]

I agree with you, but do you think that God birthed the pharaoh to be as wicked as he was (keeping in mind the horrible things he did or tried to do to the Hebrews in the beginning of Exodus before his hardening)?

I do.

Or do you think that because God knew what kind of man the pharaoh would become He ensured the pharaoh would rise to power in Egypt and then hardened his heart by manipulating his thoughts (or perhaps in other ways) at the right time, in order to ensure His plan for the deliverance of Israel would occur?

I don't believe God is a mere reactionary, who governs according to the wicked acts of any man.

God created Pharoah as a "vessel of wrath" and raised Pharoah up in order to display His Sovereign wrath and power over all the ungodly. God made Pharoah to be what he proved to be; a creature "prepared for destruction." (Romans 9:22)

Nang

[GoBahnsen]

2: Why would you accept a theology/doctrine that makes God out to be a devilish tyrant?

A lot of people would call God a devil for sending people to hell for their sin. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for ordering the death of women and children. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for drowning the whole world, with all the children and puppies. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for not giving people a second chance after death. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for allowing so much horrific evil to continue in this world.

I don't.


A lot of people would call God a devil for choosing to save some and not others, for His own reasons. You do. I don't.

[GoBahnsen]

it is not as though stating that because God knew he would choose to do evil God ensured he did just that, escapes the very charges GoB is stating.

If God interferes with the direction of any heart at any time it simply disqualifies the simple fact that the man's will is free.

What just seems to borderline absurdity is the natural reading that God hardened pharoa SO THAT he would not let them go and that is totally problematic for the LFW camp.

Everything that has been thrown at that fact has been either based on a basis to support thier system. Dio simply states that though God says he will harden pharoahs heart so that he (pharoah) will not let isreal go, God wanted pharoah to let isreal go???

This is classic skitozophrenia of God.

You can throw all the "God knew he would" or "God wanted pharoa to let them go" all you want. I simply have not heard a reasonable post as to what the passage means EXACTLY.

Heres my assumption:
1) God is skitzophrenic and though he wants pharoah to let Isreal go, he made it so pharoah would not let them go.

2) God is skitzophrenic and though he wants pharoah to let Isreal go, he chose the guy ensuring that pharoah would not let isreal go.

3) God actually had a plan and did not want Isreal to go and therfore hardened pharoas heart (see exod 4) so Gods plan would transpire.

Anyone else have some alternatives : )

Aug

Good questions. I vote for # 3, with the necessary addition, that God did not want Israel to go too quickly.

[auggybendoggy]

GoB has chosen wisely.

Indeed nang my point was not to show that the God reacted to pharoah that which he knew would happen (circular logic).

If God knew the pharoa was going to wear perals that day then why MAKE HIM WEAR PEARLS. If anything God would not have said ANYTHING at all about hardening because he already knows he will do it.

Instead my point is to tread exodus 4 in a fair manner which is that God ENSURED that Isreal would not be released until God's time permitted.

But this presents the problem...

God called pharoah to let Isreal go
God ensured the pharoah would not meet this request

So the ? is
was it sin for the pharoah to deny moses' request which was from God? (leading to the very charge against calvinism).

Aug

[bridgeforsale]

I don't believe God is a mere reactionary, who governs according to the wicked acts of any man.

God created Pharoah as a "vessel of wrath" and raised Pharoah up in order to display His Sovereign wrath and power over all the ungodly. God made Pharoah to be what he proved to be; a creature "prepared for destruction." (Romans 9:22)

Nang

I don't think God is reactionary either.

[bridgeforsale]

A lot of people would call God a devil for sending people to hell for their sin. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for ordering the death of women and children. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for drowning the whole world, with all the children and puppies. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for not giving people a second chance after death. I don't.

A lot of people would call God a devil for allowing so much horrific evil to continue in this world.

I don't.


A lot of people would call God a devil for choosing to save some and not others, for His own reasons. You do. I don't.

neither do I

[bridgeforsale]

But this presents the problem...

God called pharoah to let Isreal go
God ensured the pharoah would not meet this request

So the ? is
was it sin for the pharoah to deny moses' request which was from God? (leading to the very charge against calvinism).

Aug

That's an excellent question. My answer of course is yes it was a sin for the Pharaoh to disobey God; even though God hardened him and made sure he would not release the Hebrews.

IMO the pharaoh had been given over to his reprobate mind long before the Exodus event. God always knew the pharaoh would become the wicked man we see in Scripture. That's why God raised him up to his position of power; and had always intended to do so (probably even before the pharaoh was born).

But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor (2 Timothy 2:18-21).

This only have I found:
God made mankind upright,
but men have gone in search of many schemes" (Ecclesiastes 7:29).

For everything in the world—the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world (1 John 2:16).

[bridgeforsale]

One additional note (I just can't shut up this morning).

Arminian versus Calvinist doctrine isn’t a question of who glorifies God more; or at least it shouldn’t be. In John 17:20-21 Christ tells us: “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one.”

We ought to want what Christ wanted, which is Christian unity. Logically speaking isn’t it more difficult to control beings who have free will (if we are to compete over this question)?

When Christ acknowledges that everything He has, including those who come to Him, is given to Him by the Father, does this necessitate a predestination outlook or is this an exhortation?

When God allowed Satan to torment Job was God so sure that Job would remain loyal to Him because He created Job to be infallible and incorruptible? Or did God simply know Job? A larger question this begs is if God knew us from the founding of the world and our destinies were predetermined by decree rather than omniscient knowledge then what are the mechanics? Is each soul a unique spirit created anew at the moment of our birth (or conception) or did our souls preexist our birth? These become important questions because under each scenario a different set of problems exist.

The father child relationship is strewn throughout Scripture. God created us for adoption into glory. We are to become the sons and daughters of God. The potter is shaping His clay; this means God is shaping humanity for our ultimate destiny.

[GoBahnsen]

That's why God raised him up to his position of power; and had always intended to do so (probably even before the pharaoh was born).

I'm curious as to why you say "probably". Aren't all of God's works known to Him from the beginning?

Act 15:18 Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

[bridgeforsale]

I'm curious as to why you say "probably". Aren't all of God's works known to Him from the beginning?

Act 15:18 Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Yes they are, essentially. However, honestly there's a bit of a problem I'm still trying to work out. In the Noah story in Genesis God expressed regret that He ever created us in the first place. This at least infers the possibility that God didn't predict with absolute accuracy the level of wickedness mankind would reach.

That being said I do know that God knew all the works He would perform from the beginning. However, that's still an incomplete statement. For example, did God know the identity of the man He would bring to power over Egypt (the pharaoh) from the beginning? Of course God created the old covenant law with the knowledge that it was nearly impossible to adhere to (this doesn't mean we're all not sinners, I'm simply referring to the 7,000 who did not bow to baal). God also knew He would have to facilitate the Hebrews escape from Egypt in order to sustain their homogeny (for purposes of bringing forth Christ). Thus He knew he would have to raise up a pharaoh to facilitate His plan. However, there are still gaps and a bigger question posed by the Noah account.

I like William Lane Craig's theories of omniscience (based on Einsteins theory of relativity). I also find the theories of classical and quantum mechanics to be an interesting way to view God's predictive ability. This explains how His foreknowledge existed in different degrees during human history (for example, early in our history our concept of time was closer to God's than it is now & when God created Adam & Eve, before the fall, they were in the same reference frame in time as God). I did participated in a thread on this several months ago. Here's a link that explains this theory (it's a very quick read I promise).

[GoBahnsen]

Yes they are, essentially. However, honestly there's a bit of a problem I'm still trying to work out. In the Noah story in Genesis God expressed regret that He ever created us in the first place. This at least infers the possibility that God didn't predict with absolute accuracy the level of wickedness mankind would reach.

That being said I do know that God knew all the works He would perform from the beginning. However, that's still an incomplete statement. For example, did God know the identity of the man He would bring to power over Egypt (the pharaoh) from the beginning? Of course God created the old covenant law with the knowledge that it was nearly impossible to adhere to (this doesn't mean we're all not sinners, I'm simply referring to the 7,000 who did not bow to baal). God also knew He would have to facilitate the Hebrews escape from Egypt in order to sustain their homogeny (for purposes of bringing forth Christ). Thus He knew he would have to raise up a pharaoh to facilitate His plan. However, there are still gaps and a bigger question posed by the Noah account.

I like William Lane Craig's theories of omniscience (based on Einsteins theory of relativity). I also find the theories of classical and quantum mechanics to be an interesting way to view God's predictive ability. This explains how His foreknowledge existed in different degrees during human history (for example, early in our history our concept of time was closer to God's than it is now & when God created Adam & Eve, before the fall, they were in the same reference frame in time as God). I did participated in a thread on this several months ago. Here's a link that explains this theory (it's a very quick read I promise).

I'm just one of these guys that has no problem with God being unable to learn anything new. The idea of God being a "learning" deity seems heretical to me.