The Screwball Whine and Rant Area

[Mr Minder]

Uh, but surely you know that Ignatius and Clement of Rome condemned the joining of sects...

... Uhm, no, I don't.

And, if we don't worship JPH at all, then maybe we worship someone who is far more worthy of receiving that honor: Mrs H!

[jpholding]

How ironic is this ruffianism, and as a general practice. He is not a professing Christian. He is not operating a professional ministry !

Your latest 'Who Should I Slam ?' thread is all you (unfortunately). Let God's word and the Holy Spirit guide you there.

Vance....

....take a chill pill and get the iron rod out of your rear end, willya? If you don't like it here, don't read what's posted. There's also an "Ignore" feature you can use. You can be the Pharisee of the Week anywhere you want to on TWeb. And while you're at it:

By staying engaged as is done, and done and done, with the DJs and Jimbos of the world actually is to their spiritual harm.

...you might also want to get your head out of the sand, too.

already know this. You show yourself His servant in doing that with Tektonics. I encourage you to focus your energies--narrow them down, and do more such good with your ministry.

Dude, I already AM, and have been. Right now a ministry partner and I are working on a special program involving publishing and speaking. I'm also doing work for outside sources to the same effect. And those two things take up most of my time these days.

You're being a judgmental Pharisee here, Vance. Looks like you're the one who needs help with thinking before talking.

You are a powerful role model here on TWeb. Be careful; God will hold you especially accountable for your influence.

Oooh, the old "you're gonna burn in hell" argument. Hey, know what? The weak will be held accountable for their lack of spirit. Better polish your pitchfork.

Alot of the people who come against you are not stupid. Some are believers along with you. Quit calling people that as a practice !

I call them stupid because they are stupid. When do you plan to prove otherwise?

People are following your lead, JPH. Insults are not of God; we all know this--yes, even the unbelievers.

Blah blah blah....same tired excuses, same shopworn arguments... "That's God talking"....blah blah blah....

As I said more than once, you're welcome to leave anytime. We'll do the real work while you sit back and sing hymns and coddle soul-murderers.







Speaking of which, DJ wins yet again, along with the author he recommends:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...jesus-was.html

I have highly recommended John Beversluis' book C.S. Lewis and the Search for Rational Religion as part of the DC Challenge. Here's a taste of what you'll find in his book, which is just a small part of his argument against the trilemma (Lunatic, Liar, or Lord) of C.S. Lewis (used with permission from Dr. Beversluis, pp. 127-131):

Kreeft and Tacelli follow Lewis's cue and claim that Jesus does not exhibit any of the character traits typically associated with people suffering from "divinity complexes" such as egotism, narcissism, inflexibility, inability to understand and relate to other people, and so forth. They instantly conclude that he has the "wrong psychological profile" to be a lunatic. That is a bold claim in view of the fact that their "analysis" of Jesus's personality is less than a page long and is based on criteria of normality that sound like the kind of pop psychology one hears on television talk shows. It also fails to confront the real issue. Claiming to be God does not render one vulnerable to the suspicion of being delusional only if it is accompanied by further psychopathological symptoms; the claim is itself symptomatic of being delusional.

Let us explore this in more detail. If Jesus had the "wrong psychological profile" to be delusional, why are Mary and Joseph so distraught over his peculiar behavior as a youth (Luke 2:41-49)? Why does he fail to recognize his own mother and brothers, and say that his disciples are his mother and his brothers, as is anyone else who does the will of God (Matt. 12:4-50)? Why do people think he is "beside himself and even demon possessed? (Mark 3:21)? Why does he have conversations with demons and "unclean spirits"? (Mark 3:11-12) Why does he permit one of these demons to leave the body of a possessed man and enter into a herd of two thousand pigs who immediately gallop down a precipice into the sea and drown (Mark 5:12-14)? As the nineteenth century German New Testament scholar David Friedrich Strauss astutely comments:

The difficulties connected with this point are multiplied by the natural reflection that the drowning of the herd would involve no slight injury to the owners, and that of this injury Jesus was the mediate author.

Why does he borrow someone else's colt without asking permission (Mark 11:2-4)--behavior that would ordinarily be regarded as theft? Why does he curse a fig tree for not bearing fruit when it is not the season for fruit (Mark 11:13-15; Matt. 21:19-20)? Again, Strauss sees the problem with penetrating clarity:

The moral end of punishment, namely, to bring the punished person to a conviction and acknowledgment of his error, can have no existence in relation to a tree .... For one to be irritated against an inanimate object, which does not happen to be found just in the desired state, is with reason pronounced to be proof of an uncultivated mind; to carry such indignation to the destruction of the object is regarded as barbarous, and unworthy of a reasonable being ... .Jesus must ... have known that it was the wrong season; so that the enigma remains, how [he] could be so indignant that the tree was in a condition which, owing to the circumstances known to him, was inevitable? ... Mark does not always go to work in the most considerate manner. Thus he hastens to furnish the explanation, that it was not the time for figs, not observing that while he accounts for the barrenness of the tree, he makes the conduct of Jesus morally inexplicable.

Even more inexplicable is his conduct in Matthew 11:20-24 where he threatens three entire villages (Chorazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum) with eternal torment because their inhabitants did not embrace his teachings and repent because of his miracles. This seems shockingly unjust. Surely not everyone in those villages was present at his sermons-babies, the elderly, the deaf or otherwise handicapped, the sick, the dying, people who never heard of him, and so on. Is it just (or even rational) to consign people to a lake of fire eternally because they do not accept your teachings? He also threatens to cast people into Hell for not receiving his missionaries (Mark 6:11).

The ignorance of Beversluis is appalling, as he (of course) assumes to psychoanalyze Jesus in modern, Western terms rather than in the context of a collectivist, agonistic society.

Yep. These are the people Vance wants us to be nice to.

[gharfish]

Vance....

....take a chill pill and get the iron rod out of your rear end, willya?

Iron, huh. Isn't the proverbial broomstick good enough ?

If you don't like it here, don't read what's posted. There's also an "Ignore" feature you can use. You can be the Pharisee of the Week anywhere you want to on TWeb.

What have I to do with being like a Pharisee ? In your reply to come, be specific and contrast it with how you are not [that]. It's become an easy character assassination technique, perfect for anyone Christian that is perceived to be opposing Jesus' true work. I haven't done that. No.

"PS" The ignore feature doesn't work on a forum.

And while you're at it:



...you might also want to get your head out of the sand, too.

Maybe I ought to dutifully read the hate mail you pass on to the regs here (?) ...get myself all riled up and inspired to fight. The way of the Master, Jesus (sorry) is actually up against demonic forces, you know. Isn't that right ? --has hard support in the scripture ?

I suggest you get to the stacks to do your real, productive, morally upright to all [watching] kind of work, and throw that mail the hell out. Think of your mental and spiritual health, if nothing else.



BTW, I think that as "a former armed guard," it is better to shoot myself with my own gun. (Pull a Van Gogh, as "a former art teacher.") Your way is too messy, costly, and needlessly painful.

Dude, I already AM, and have been. Right now a ministry partner and I are working on a special program involving publishing and speaking. I'm also doing work for outside sources to the same effect. And those two things take up most of my time these days.

That's great ! You have the heart to go really far, to help Him, help people. Right there is God's heart for humankind. Yes ?!

Do you remember that I was among those who right away sincerely congratulated you on your inclusion in Strobel's newest book ? I DO support apologetics; it is quite necessary to support evangelism. I've studied apologetics, with vigor. It bolsters Jesus' gospel. You have in many ways a good ministry. I commend you for that.

In exercising it in Mt. 5/6/7 noncombative ways, it is glorifying to God; it works to bring people towards the decision that will reconcile them to Him. If misused (as I said earlier) it naturally serves to drive people away--hardens "your" enemies. DJ can't be stopped by us. It's not our (Christians') job to stop him, in a guerilla war of sorts.

How can apologetics be used best to counter this so commonplace antichrist movement--all those operating as is his ?? That is a question that should be given sober thought.

Re. "Doubting John," the man: I don't "have my head in the sand" at all when I take him at his word that the, now, personal war you all have going back-and-forth with him 'and his' only gives him resolve to fight all the harder to "deconvert' Christians. Oh, it greatly energizes him to rush farther towards destruction--self destruction. His own. For God's sake don't help him do this ! Don't enable Jimbo either. Let them go--away; their way.

I say it's reasoned apologetics and prayer from/by his enemies that is NOW the better way, by far, to oppose what they have been doing (the organized debunking) for such a long time.

He is first and foremost an enemy to our faith. I believe this approach is a STRONG ONE and is in keeping with Jesus' teachings. These guys, if we let them, will turn you--us--into militants too !



I know DJ pretty well too. I was one of the very first people to meet him here on TWeb--upon his arrival--when he had yet to become the militant atheist he is now. He was an agnostic then.

You're being a judgmental Pharisee here, Vance. Looks like you're the one who needs help with thinking before talking.

Then we are alike, JP. You judge and condemn people constantly. In fact, the screwballs thread devolves too often into a crass Sanhedrin of your's.

Here is my opinion: The baser directions the Tektonics forum sometimes takes cause a credibility drain on your scholarly body of work, and I strongly suspect that unprofessional appearances have limited it being shared as it deserves to be, in widespread publishing.

Oooh, the old "you're gonna burn in hell" argument. Hey, know what? The weak will be held accountable for their lack of spirit. Better polish your pitchfork.

"Hell...pitchfork" ? Who believes that is what I was saying !? Come on; what scriptural truths--the main passages, we both know, do apply there ?

I call them stupid because they are stupid. When do you plan to prove otherwise?.......... We'll do the real work while you sit back and sing hymns and coddle soul-murderers.

Ok, you go your way into the militant mindest and I'll do what you ID is my role: the unmanly hymn singing and babbying.

Speaking of which, DJ wins yet again, along with the author he recommends:

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...jesus-was.html



The ignorance of Beversluis is appalling, as he (of course) assumes to psychoanalyze Jesus in modern, Western terms rather than in the context of a collectivist, agonistic society.

Yep. These are the people Vance wants us to be nice to.

*emphasis, mine*

Yes; be "nice" to them. (says the nutter)

[gharfish]

Of course you say it doesn't, because you can't even notice your hypocrisies in those statements. Unless you're really going to tell us those statements He made weren't insults.

I will: They weren't insults.

[jpholding]

Dear Vance in the Pants,

Iron, huh. Isn't the proverbial broomstick good enough ?

No. You keep breaking those as you use them. No end of a mess.

What have I to do with being like a Pharisee ?

I'll buy you a T-shirt with the term "self-righteous" on it and see if you pick up any hints....

"PS" The ignore feature doesn't work on a forum.

YOU don't work. I'm using it right now to ignore a host of people here. Learn to use it.

Maybe I ought to dutifully read the hate mail you pass on to the regs here (?)

You sure need some kind of help. Or maybe I should just forward it all to you and watch you collapse in a heap. You'll either faint dead away or do a David Banner on us. I vote for the former as more likely.

...get myself all riled up and inspired to fight. The way of the Master, Jesus (sorry) is actually up against demonic forces, you know. Isn't that right ?

No, sorry. As a preterist I find that a load of Oscar Mayer. No demons.

I suggest you get to the stacks to do your real, productive, morally upright to all [watching] kind of work, and throw that mail the hell out. Think of your mental and spiritual health, if nothing else.

Just because you're mentally and spiritually weak....doesn't mean I am, or anyone else in particular is....Mr Freud.

That's great ! You have the heart to go really far, to help Him, help people. Right there is God's heart for humankind. Yes ?!

His heart is in many places and takes many avenues. It's too bad you refuse to recognize them all and contrive excuses to get rid of the ways you don't like. Thanks to coddlers like you, Christianity is 50 years from dying in this country.

In exercising it in Mt. 5/6/7 noncombative ways, it is glorifying to God; it works to bring people towards the decision that will reconcile them to Him

Then enjoy your part as the Body member that does that, and don't whine about what role the other parts play in the big picture. Also bear on mind that Mt. 5-7 has to do with personal relationships....not public ones.

DJ can't be stopped by us. .

Wanna make a bet?

I have a wall full of stuffed heads of people who I've shut up or made less effective.

DJ is already that. His frustration compelled him to the Big Lie (TM) about me. His credibility is lower than a dog's toenails.

Can't be stopped? Or slowed? Please. Take your Rx and get back to me....

It's not our (Christians') job to stop him, in a guerilla war of sorts

Yes it is, whether you choose to accept it or make excuses for not doing it. Perhaps not the job of YOUR part of the Body....but no one asked you to get involved in it, either.

Re. "Doubting John," the man: I don't "have my head in the sand" at all when I take him at his word that the, now, personal war you all have going back-and-forth with him 'and his' only gives him resolve to fight all the harder to "deconvert' Christians.

Then you're not very perceptive at all, nor very observant. Too bad.

You're too weak to do it my way? Fine. Go your way in peace. The door is right there, where you keep your mouse....

I know DJ pretty well too. I was one of the very first people to meet him here on TWeb--upon his arrival--when he had yet to become the militant atheist he is now.

You fell for his charade, eh? Poor fellow....so naive....that was all a ploy, Vance,. to try to get you to think, "gee, what a nice guy, maybe he has a point"....and you fell for it. You really think a man who cheated so powerfully on his wife was being "honest"?

Which section of Disney World are you from? Oh yes....FantasyLand.

Then we are alike, JP. You judge and condemn people constantly.

I judge people based on facts, and condemn them based on error.

You judge and condemn IN error, and make excuses for it when called down.

Here is my opinion: The baser directions the Tektonics forum sometimes takes cause a credibility drain on your scholarly body of work, and I strongly suspect that unprofessional appearances have limited it being shared as it deserves to be, in widespread publishing.

Sorry, no. I've continued to be published in magazines as usual for years now. Books will be out of the question (other than self-pub) no matter what because the publishing industry has a "don't call us, we'll call you" approach today, and if you don't know an editor, you're out of luck. And I am disgusted with the industry anyway; it cares more about Left Behind and postmodernist crap than it does about education.

Care to draft another opinion? An informed one this time?

"Hell...pitchfork" ? Who believes that is what I was saying !?

However you slice it, you used threat as opposed to rational or exegetical argument....and that's the sign of someone out of their league.

Ok, you go your way into the militant mindest and I'll do what you ID is my role: the unmanly hymn singing and babbying.

No doubt.










Add on to Avalos --

He thinks Doherty's Christ myth thesis is "plausible".

[xtreem5150ahm]

I'll buy you a T-shirt with the term "self-righteous" on it and see if you pick up any hints....

make sure you let them know it's not for you this time..... hope it doesn't screw up your bulk rates.


Edit to add:

That's great ! You have the heart to go really far, to help Him, help people. Right there is God's heart for humankind. Yes ?!

His heart is in many places and takes many avenues. It's too bad you refuse to recognize them all and contrive excuses to get rid of the ways you don't like. Thanks to coddlers like you, Christianity is 50 years from dying in this country.

Is your faith really in yourself, as this quote indicates?

[Mr Minder]

Honestly, I don't think that what's JPH indicated; but I can't answer for him, so...

[jpholding]

make sure you let them know it's not for you this time..... hope it doesn't screw up your bulk rates.

It won't. When I receive them, I always get the gift wrapping done with the order. Where do you want yours sent, along with the one that says, "Sound Biter"?

Is your faith really in yourself, as this quote indicates?

To read that out of what I wrote requires some powerful psychiatric medication. What is it you're taking today?

[Doubting John]

You can't stop him.

[jpholding]

How's that credibility rating, DJ?

We have someone new for your blog -- Graeme Jones! He fits right in! Check his message I quoted above!

[Doubting John]

Speaking of which, DJ wins yet again, along with the author he recommends:
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspo...jesus-was.html
The ignorance of Beversluis is appalling, as he (of course) assumes to psychoanalyze Jesus in modern, Western terms rather than in the context of a collectivist, agonistic society.

Yep. These are the people Vance wants us to be nice to.

I've already told you why you should be nice to us. Because we're likeable people. And, apart from here on TWEB if you're not, people will think you're a....a....total jerk! Oh, and another thing; if you want your arguments to be heard you just have to. Most everyone recognizes an ad hominem when they see one. You must engage our arguments and try to defeat them reasonably.

As far as judging Jesus by ancient, pathetic standards, rather than our standards today goes, it's OUR standards today that count, silly! Surely you wouldn't suggest that kings should go to war every Spring just because that's what kings do. But you find that comment in the Bible.

[Doubting John]

How's that credibility rating, DJ?

We have someone new for your blog -- Graeme Jones! He fits right in! Check his message I quoted above!

When does our debate begin?

[Doubting John]

"Say something nice and stupid while I'm gone."

Hmmm. Okay....

For your reading pleasure:

http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...ad.php?t=63292

[Doubting John]

I'll let you know in the sign-up thread.

I have to go run an errand now. Say something nice and stupid while I'm gone.

Why is everything about intelligence and stupidity? Yes, there are stupid people. So what follows from that?

Answer me this. The way this thread operates every month is to point out stupidity among the people you disagree with, and there's some value in that, if nothing else but to vent. Venting isn't bad, so long as done in the appropriate place.

But do you honestly believe that all the people you call stupid are indeed stupid? I've told you from the beginning it's not about intelligence. To claim that it is, is...well...stupid. It's like claiming that stupid people cannot be saved if they believe the writings of other stupid people. AND it's also claiming that all we need is intelligence to see the truth.

Anyone who has travelled outside of their house knows this isn't the case. Are you truly on an errand outside your house? Or do you live in an amish commune or something where you never actually deal with outside people?

All one has to do is to ask people which diet is the best one to lose weight from, and you'll see the HONEST disagreement.

Let the debate begin. I'm willing to go more than three rounds with you if you'll go first.

[LilPunkishOfTerror]

... you're a....a....total jerk! Oh, and another thing; if you want your arguments to be heard you just have to. Most everyone recognizes an ad hominem when they see one.