Forgiveness and Repentance

[Paula]

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.(Matthew 18:21-22 NASB)

Jesus then proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

This parable is fairly straightforward: God has forgiven us a massive debt so we should forgive others for their much smaller debts.

Something that I have wondered about: what if the person who wrongs you doesn't believe they have done anything wrong or denies having wronged you?

[mossrose]

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.(Matthew 18:21-22 NASB)

Jesus then proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

This parable is fairly straightforward: God has forgiven us a massive debt so we should forgive others for their much smaller debts.

Something that I have wondered about: what if the person who wrongs you doesn't believe they have done anything wrong or denies having wronged you?

I struggled with this issue quite a few years ago. Those who wronged me never asked forgiveness, and I have no idea if there was any repentance on their part. It took me a very long time to forgive them, but I did, and I am free of that bondage.

Jesus didn't say we are only to forgive when the other person asks forgiveness. He just said we are to forgive.

I will not forget what was done, but there is no bitterness, no anger, no hatred, only peace. They are left to themselves and to God, Who will deal with them in His own time.

[Obsidian]

Generally speaking, I think the Bible does seem to teach that the person needs to repent, especially for big sins against you. But the overall point of the parable you cite is that God will treat Christians the way that they treat each other. I don't think you want God being super uptight about your having to repent of everything before he lets you off the hook.

[Cow Poke]

I struggled with this issue quite a few years ago. Those who wronged me never asked forgiveness, and I have no idea if there was any repentance on their part. It took me a very long time to forgive them, but I did, and I am free of that bondage.

Jesus didn't say we are only to forgive when the other person asks forgiveness. He just said we are to forgive.

I will not forget what was done, but there is no bitterness, no anger, no hatred, only peace. They are left to themselves and to God, Who will deal with them in His own time.

Somebody famous said something like "To forgive is to set a prisoner free - then you discover that prisoner was you".

[Cow Poke]

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.(Matthew 18:21-22 NASB)

Jesus then proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

This parable is fairly straightforward: God has forgiven us a massive debt so we should forgive others for their much smaller debts.

Something that I have wondered about: what if the person who wrongs you doesn't believe they have done anything wrong or denies having wronged you?

Jesus tells us how to handle that in Matthew 18:15-17

[Sparko]

Somebody famous said something like "To forgive is to set a prisoner free - then you discover that prisoner was you".

yeah, I find that to be true. When I am mad at someone and hold a grudge, I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time worrying about the situation, feeling angry, thinking of ways to resolve the issue or get revenge, etc. But when I let that go, and just forgive them, then all that goes away and I am free to continue my life without all that stress. Forgiveness does help others, but even if you only forgive them in your heart and they know nothing about it, forgiveness always helps you.

[Obsidian]

Leviticus 19:17-18
Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

Luke 17:3-4
Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Matthew 18:15-17
Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

I think the idea is that if it isn't worth rebuking him over and/or starting a fight or court dispute over, then you should just let it go regardless of whether he repents.

[bling]

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.(Matthew 18:21-22 NASB)

Jesus then proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

This parable is fairly straightforward: God has forgiven us a massive debt so we should forgive others for their much smaller debts.

Something that I have wondered about: what if the person who wrongs you doesn't believe they have done anything wrong or denies having wronged you?

Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?
What part does man play in his salvation?
The parable Calvinist cannot explain.
How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?
Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).
This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.
So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?
I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer to all other humans we will relate to or just other Christian brothers?)
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant is asking for “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”? (That is impossible.)
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
Is there any other debt since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owes the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.
Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).

I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
If you want to discuss further let’s start with what we do agree with.


Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

[Obsidian]

Biblical law doesn't justify putting someone in prison for debt. Therefore, the master was angry because one of his servants had committed false imprisonment against another one of his servants. The master punished the wicked servant in a comparable manner.

[Sparko]

Is accepting forgiveness as pure charity required to complete the transaction?
What part does man play in his salvation?
The parable Calvinist cannot explain.
How can a person be forgiven by God and still owe God what God forgave?
Christ explains how God’s forgiveness works by giving God’s forgiveness in a Parable form to explain how we are to forgive, but you are going to have think and study what he says:
Matt. 18: 21-35
Peter asked a question and Jesus answered, “I tell you, not seven times, but 77 times (or 7x70).
I would say: “Jesus answered Peter’s question, perfectly and the parable is the follow-up question Peter (and the other disciples) would have on his/their heart(s).
This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.
So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?
I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)
Jesus then needs to address this bigger question with His parable.
Here are some questions I have asked in the past:

The Master (God as seen in verse 35) is the way the apostles and all Christians are to behave.
The (wicked) servant I think would be referring to all mature adults, but am open to other alternatives? (This example, for our behavior will later refer to all other humans we will relate to or just other Christian brothers?)
The Master (God) would have to be doing all His part completely perfectly and all He can do in unconditionally forgive the servant, but does the servant accept the forgiveness as pure charity (undeserving/unconditional)?
The servant is asking for “Give me time” and “I’ll pay everything back.” Now this unbelievably huge debt is way beyond any possibility of being paid back even with 1000 years of time and the servant would know that, so is the servant lying with: “I’ll pay everything back”? (That is impossible.)
If the servant truly accept unconditional forgiveness of this unbelievable huge debt, would he not automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (really Godly type Love) (Luke 7: 40-50) and would that Love be seen in Loving the Master’s other servants, which it is not being seen?
If “unconditional forgiveness” had taken place/been completed how could the Master (God) say and do: “Shouldn’t you have had mercy on the other servant just as I had mercy on you?” 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.”?
Is there any other debt since Jesus tells us this is what he owed, that the Master “tried” to forgive?
Does the servant still owes the master, because the servant did not accept the unconditional forgiveness as pure charity and thus automatically Love much?
In the parable, which scenario would give the wicked servant more “glory” accepting or rejecting God’s charity or does it even matter, since all the glory in the story goes to the Master no matter what the wicked servant does?
Can the wicked servant take pride (a false pride) in the fact that, in his mind, he did not “accept” charity but talked the Master into giving him more time?

Christ’s parables address one area of how things work in the Kingdom, but may leave other areas unaddressed (it is only a short story), so we need to be cautious.
Lots of times you need to put yourself into the audience Jesus is addressing and try to be thinking: what they would be thinking about at the time, because Jesus addresses what is on the heart of the individual person(s) and not what has been verbalized (there are a dozen examples of this).

I did not really look at the details of the servant throwing the other servant in prison. There are always limits to parables, but look at the subtle differences between what the servants did and what the master did. The wicked servant only put the fellow servant in prison (no mention of torture this could be like Paul’s imprisonment) while the master had the wicked servant turned over to a person (being) for continuous torture?
If you want to discuss further let’s start with what we do agree with.


Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:
1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?
2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?
3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?
4. The wicked servant is a sinner?
5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?
6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?
7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?
8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?
If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?

That looks like a cut and paste job. If you copied it from someone or somewhere else, you need to provide a source citation.

[One Bad Pig]

21 Then Peter came and said to Him, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.(Matthew 18:21-22 NASB)

Jesus then proceeded to tell the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant.

This parable is fairly straightforward: God has forgiven us a massive debt so we should forgive others for their much smaller debts.

Something that I have wondered about: what if the person who wrongs you doesn't believe they have done anything wrong or denies having wronged you?

I think the Lord's Prayer makes it pretty clear that, if we want to be forgiven, we need to forgive, no matter what. I don't see any qualifiers there.

[bling]

Biblical law doesn't justify putting someone in prison for debt. Therefore, the master was angry because one of his servants had committed false imprisonment against another one of his servants. The master punished the wicked servant in a comparable manner.

You say: the Masters justification for punishing the servant is he “committed false imprisonment against another one of his servants”, but then the master is guilty of the same mistake, because he has the servant imprisoned until his debt is paid; “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt”

The Master just got through saying: “…I forgave you all that debt”

And turns and says 34 And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt.

If the master “forgave the debt” how is the debt still owed so the servant has to pay it back?

[Cow Poke]

I think the Lord's Prayer makes it pretty clear that, if we want to be forgiven, we need to forgive, no matter what. I don't see any qualifiers there.

Yeah.

[Obsidian]

but then the master is guilty of the same mistake, because he has the servant imprisoned until his debt is paid; “And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt”

Eye for an eye

[hedrick]

I just looked at "forgive" in the Gospels. Some talk about repentance. Many do not. Mat 5:43 says by implication that God loves even his enemies, who we can assume aren't repentance.

My conclusion is that there are two types of forgiveness. One is full reconciliation. It's hard to see how that's possible without repentance, at least in serious cases. There are plenty of times when someone doesn't recognize they've done something wrong, or when it's sufficiently minor that you can just ignore it. But in theory reconciliation requires repentance.

However there's another reason for forgiveness, and that's to lift the burden of being upset at someone. Forgiveness benefits the person doing the forgiving even if the other person remains unreconciled.

I'll note one other interesting thing. Jesus certainly has parables that show people asking for forgiveness, and talks about it himself. But normally when he calls on people to repent, he's speaking of a major change in their lives. There's much less talk about a need to repent of every individual sin — assuming that the person is repentant in general — than one might expect given what a lot of Christians say.