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  • Muhammad

    Hello, my Muslim friends (aka siam)!

    Can you please lay out your rationale for believing that Muhammad was a prophet of God?

    Thank-you.

  • #2
    In Islam, the term "Prophet" simply means "messenger of God" (Angel/Malaika are also messengers). There are two kinds of Prophets, one who brings law (Lawgiver) and the other who restates the message. Further, in Islam, "The Message" (which is covered in the word Tawheed) is the same consistent message since the time of Prophet Adam (pbuh) sent to all humanity throughout time. Therefore analyzing the message to see if it fits Tawheed would be one way to determine the validity of the message. However, the Prophet Muhammed (phuh) is also a lawgiver, the message he brought is the Quran therefore, the Quran needs to be examined to see if the Message and the ethical/moral principles (from which "Law" is derived) align with Tawheed.

    The validity of Prophethood of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) rests on the authenticity of the Quran (rather than the validity of the Quran resting on the authenticity of the Prophethood)

    So, on what criteria should one examine the Quran?...The Quran answers this question---It says that those who are in doubt, if individual, should bring a surah, and if a group, should bring 10 surahs of like quality. The Surahs in the Quran are of different lengths and the smallest ones I think are about 3-4 lines (verses) only....that sounds pretty easy right? Further, the Quran also discourages blind belief and recommends the pursuit of knowledge. So, the Muslim scholars set to work to examine and analyze the Quran and establish a literary criteria so as "to know" the Quran, as well as to compare its quality. At the time of the revelation, the Arabic poetry standards had reached an apex and there were some accomplished poets already in the community.
    ....So far, no one has met the challenge of the Quran.

    These days, Western scholars of Islam/Quran are looking into this aspect (literary analysis)...I mentioned some of these efforts in a previous thread about the Quran. In our 1,400 year history, Muslim scholars have thoroughly examined the Quran...and also continue to do so today...its principles and themes are timeless and there is much to be gained in its study.
    Areas of interest of Western Scholars, for now, are in the (literary) structure of the Quran (chiastic structure, ring structure...etc) and intertextuality (the relationship of its discourse with other texts/knowledge---such as Torah, Psalms, Gospels....and others)

    ...can go into more detail if interested.....
    Last edited by siam; 05-05-2016, 10:21 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by siam View Post
      In Islam, the term "Prophet" simply means "messenger of God" (Angel/Malaika are also messengers). There are two kinds of Prophets, one who brings law (Lawgiver) and the other who restates the message. Further, in Islam, "The Message" (which is covered in the word Tawheed) is the same consistent message since the time of Prophet Adam (pbuh) sent to all humanity throughout time. Therefore analyzing the message to see if it fits Tawheed would be one way to determine the validity of the message. However, the Prophet Muhammed (phuh) is also a lawgiver, the message he brought is the Quran therefore, the Quran needs to be examined to see if the Message and the ethical/moral principles (from which "Law" is derived) align with Tawheed.

      The validity of Prophethood of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) rests on the authenticity of the Quran (rather than the validity of the Quran resting on the authenticity of the Prophethood)

      So, on what criteria should one examine the Quran?...The Quran answers this question---It says that those who are in doubt, if individual, should bring a surah, and if a group, should bring 10 surahs of like quality. The Surahs in the Quran are of different lengths and the smallest ones I think are about 3-4 lines (verses) only....that sounds pretty easy right? Further, the Quran also discourages blind belief and recommends the pursuit of knowledge. So, the Muslim scholars set to work to examine and analyze the Quran and establish a literary criteria so as "to know" the Quran, as well as to compare its quality. At the time of the revelation, the Arabic poetry standards had reached an apex and there were some accomplished poets already in the community.
      ....So far, no one has met the challenge of the Quran.

      These days, Western scholars of Islam/Quran are looking into this aspect (literary analysis)...I mentioned some of these efforts in a previous thread about the Quran. In our 1,400 year history, Muslim scholars have thoroughly examined the Quran...and also continue to do so today...its principles and themes are timeless and there is much to be gained in its study.
      Areas of interest of Western Scholars, for now, are in the (literary) structure of the Quran (chiastic structure, ring structure...etc) and intertextuality (the relationship of its discourse with other texts/knowledge---such as Torah, Psalms, Gospels....and others)

      ...can go into more detail if interested.....
      I'm still unclear as to precisely what Muhammad accomplished aside from serving as a motivating force in the production of a religious text that Muslims believe is from God. Forgive me if this strikes you as a caricature - but does the substance of your belief boil down to: "I believe the Quran is from God, therefore Muhammad must be a prophet of God"?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
        I'm still unclear as to precisely what Muhammad accomplished aside from serving as a motivating force in the production of a religious text that Muslims believe is from God. Forgive me if this strikes you as a caricature - but does the substance of your belief boil down to: "I believe the Quran is from God, therefore Muhammad must be a prophet of God"?
        It seems there are several questions here: 1) what did the Prophet accomplish 2) The substance of the "belief" 3) does the statement "I believe the Quran is from God, therefore Muhammad must be a prophet of God"? reflect my position....

        3) Yes...for me personally, the content of the message is a very important criteria---but for scholars, the structure (of Quran) is also of value. In the case of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) the claim is not that he was simply "inspired" but that the message itself is from God...therefore, there are 2 things to consider---a) The content of the message must be consistent with the claims it makes b) It has to be "from" God (as in, not from human endeavor)
        ...However, irrespective of the fact that he brought "Guidance"/Quran, the Prophet was also a human being who accomplished an extraordinary achievement.....

        Criteria b) in the above is fairly easy to prove/disprove, (if one presumes the existence of God)....If a person claims that the Quran is a human endeavor---then this assumption/theory can be tested by replicating the literary quality of the Quran. Criteria a) may take a bit of effort and in my case, since I am not a scholar, it is very subjective....one example is---the Quran says that God sent messengers to all humanity throughout time...and it also says that the Quran (final message) corrects and/or completes the other messages. In the case of Judaism and Christianity---it is easier to see where these corrections are since the Quran uses many of the references from the Bible, but when it comes to other religions such as Buddhism, Daoism, Vedic Hinduism....etc....things are not as easy....but still I can see traces of Tawheed (One God/Unity) in many religions...there are also other claims that the Quran makes---for example, that it is clear (straightforward) but it also uses metaphors...etc...some of the clarity comes from the precise use of words---for example, the name of the city that the Prophet escaped to was called Yathrib---but the name was changed to Medina after the Prophet arrived....so when the Quran refers to the people of the area before the arrival of the Prophet, it uses the name Yathrib---even though such precision is not really necessary to understanding---another similar example is the use of the title King and Pharaoh---the ancient Egyptian monarchs were referred to as kings until later when they were called Pharaoh...and the Quran makes this distinction even though the use of one or the other title alone, would not have made a difference in understanding.
        "The early monarchs of Egypt were not known as pharaohs but as kings. The honorific title of `pharaoh' for a ruler did not appear until the period known as the New Kingdom (1570-1069 BCE)."
        from http://www.ancient.eu/pharaoh/
        ...and other claims...the most important to me personally is that it is "Guidance" (which to me are the ethico-moral principles that will elevate the human soul so that it may accomplish the will/pleasure of God....)

        as to the existence of God---I have always presumed this as far back as I can remember....so maybe the statement, I believe in God therefore I believe the Quran is from God and the Prophet is the messenger of God---would more accurately reflect my position.....

        2)Substance and Content of "Belief"---(Belief=way of life/Deen). IMO, the Quran is a guidance to "a way of life" and it is wholistic---that is, it encompasses human needs. If we assume that God has no needs and therefore it makes no difference to God whether humanity believes or disbelieves in the existence of God....Then the purpose of "Deen"/religion is to be a transformative force that benefits humanity to achieve peace at both a micro and macro scale. The micro level begins with the individual (soul) and the macro level extends to all of humanity (Bani Adam) and to all of God's creations. The ethico-moral principles that encompass all of these needs must be wholistic, consistent, and complementary to the best of human inclinations. Principles that align with Tawheed can accomplish this---those that do not, result in divisions, discord and harm.

        1) Accomplishment of the Prophet---the initial question was about Prophethood---but if we leave that aside and consider the man, he still accomplished much.
        Consider,...Western history makes a big deal of Alexander the Great...a young soldier, who inherited a crown and an experienced army, and conquered large territories and in keeping with the times and the nature of battles---there was much bloodshed, looting, destruction etc. At the Battle of Issus, the Persian King Darius offered a peace treaty with Alexander---but Alexander refused. Despite all of this...Alexander is still considered "Great"---and I have no problems with it---but now consider the man Muhammed ibn Abdulla (pbuh).

        He was an orphan with neither wealth, title, (nor ofcourse an army) who grew up on the margins. As a young man, he was concerned with Fairness and Justice. His reputation as just and trustworthy spread in the community and eventually he was employed to manage a caravan (trading). Members of the community also came to him with problems and disputes. Eventually he married well and became wealthy., Yet, the social injustice in his society troubled him deeply. He tried to do something about it and what he said attracted the marginalized, oppressed, poor people of the community. He challenged the powerful, wealthy and privileged and this led to persecution for him, his family and his followers...he lost his wife and infant son...yet, he did not lose faith, he struggled on.
        In 622 CE...a group of people invited him to Yathrib. That city had been troubled by tribal warfare and vendetta for some time and the people wanted an end to it and a way to live in peace. The Prophet went there, established a mentoring system, as well as Justice and rule of law, ended the tribal disputes and began the path towards establishing peace. He established Peace Treaties with the tribes around Yathrib/Medina. When the Meccans attacked his community, he defended it and won (battles of Badr and Uhud) but also lost some men and in the Battle of the Trench---the Meccans tried to attack but could not and left Medina without a battle. (the city had been defended and lives had been saved). But the Prophet went further....he wanted to establish a Peace treaty between Mecca and Medina...so in a bold move...he took some of his followers to a pilgrimage to the Kaaba in Mecca. He and his followers were all unarmed!!. Eventually, the Prophet negotiated a peace treaty with the Meccans---the treaty of Hudaibiya (628 CE)---even though the terms of the treaty favored the Meccans. This strategy of establishing alliances expanded the territories and many people in the region voluntarily converted to Islam. In 630 CE, after the Meccans had repeatedly violated the terms of the treaty---the Prophet took his army to Mecca....the Meccans surrendered and the Prophet gave amnesty...there was no burning of houses, or land or other such acts usually expected from battle....

        If we consider that battles makes Alexander of Macedon "Great" then the establishment of Peace is an even greater accomplishment by Muhammed ibn Abdulla (phuh), the Prophet.
        After Alexander of Macedon, his empire crumbled, though his legend and influence of Greek culture lived on after him.....this also makes Alexander "Great"---but the legacy of the Prophet after his death, continued to gain strength and today, at over a billion strong and covering the globe.... stands as a living witness to his "greatness."

        Comment


        • #5
          1) You stated: "I believe in God therefore I believe the Quran is from God and the Prophet is the messenger of God". I don't see why your belief in God leads you to embrace the Quran as God's revelation or Muhammad as God's prophet. Perhaps it has to do with your assertion that:

          2) The Quran: "corrects and/or completes the other messages". Can you give me some examples? Please provide proof of the error in the former revelation, and therefore, the need for the correction. Please also provide the evidence from the former revelation that it was in need of completion.
          Last edited by Scrawly; 05-08-2016, 05:23 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
            1) You stated: "I believe in God therefore I believe the Quran is from God and the Prophet is the messenger of God". I don't see why your belief in God leads you to embrace the Quran as God's revelation or Muhammad as God's prophet. Perhaps it has to do with your assertion that:

            2) The Quran: "corrects and/or completes the other messages". Can you give me some examples? Please provide proof of the error in the former revelation, and therefore, the need for the correction. Please also provide the evidence from the former revelation that it was in need of completion.
            1) لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله
            lā ʾilāha ʾillā-llāh, muḥammadur-rasūlu-llāh
            There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God.

            The above is the shahada (creed) of Islam. There are 2 things that are interesting about this statement---the way it is worded and what is missing from it....the Quran is not in the statement! IMO, this could be because for both statements---there is a God and the Prophet is a messenger---to be true, the Quran has to be examined. God cannot be seen and the Prophet no longer exists---BUT the Quran is still here---and it can be examined...
            The other interesting thing about the shahada is that it begins with a negation---(there is no God/s)---IMO, this signifies that in order to find truth---we need to suspend our presumptions and preconceptions. If we approach the pursuit of truth with a bias---it will only lead to the confirmation of the bias and not to truth---(something scientists would understand very well I think.....)

            So how does one establish trust in a person or object? If you were to purchase a car, and the salesperson or add made certain claims about the car---you would test drive it to confirm and if the test drive was to your satisfaction you would then have the trust to purchase it, or, if you met a person and they made some claims about themselves, for example, they were a good plumber...and if you had a leaky pipe and you called this person who did a good job of fixing it---you would then trust that person. Thus, you start from a position of neutrality and examine and test the claims in order to have trust.

            The Quran not only makes a claim...but also suggests an easy and reasonable way to test the claim---However, for me personally, the most interesting and relevant claim is that it is Guidance. I have implemented some of its wisdom and principles in my own life and benefited from it...so I trust the Quran is indeed Guidance. Once trust has been established to ones satisfaction...it can lead to conviction.

            2) Correction and/or Completion---I can give examples and perhaps links, but I am not a scholar---either of Islam or of other religions. ...just an average Muslim....
            Completion---Both Islam and Buddhism promote what I would call "radical" equality---that is the notion that all humanity is inherently of equivalent value. This means there is no such concept as "divine right to rule"---all human beings are (equally) subject to the "law" (Divine law---Dharma in Buddhism and Sharia in Islam). So what happens to governance?---particularly when a monarch needs to have and hold power in order to rule over his subjects? So, in some countries with a monarchy---Buddhism fused with another religion which did allow for the "right (power) of monarchy, for example, the fusion of Buddhism and Shintoism in Japan. Both Islam and Buddhism call for Equality and rule of law and also divide power into those who rule and those who explain "law" (the Sangha in Buddhism)....Islam completes this into a wholistic philosophy through the concept of Khalifa (Trusteeship)---just as an individual human being holds a Trust (responsibility) from God to work for the benefit of all of God's creation, so too a leader (whatever the type of government one might have) holds the Trust (responsibility) from the people. This concept encompasses both the micro (individual) and the macro (social,civic) aspects of life.
            Links:-
            The Buddhist concept of Equality---http://www.totetu.org/assets/media/paper/j020_038.pdf

            IMO, Buddhism corrected the inequality (class structure) that had crept into Hinduism through the concept of (radical) Equality---Islam does the same but it also corrects the polythesim and reminds of One God (radical monotheism). IMO, if our world-view accepts hierarchical divisions in our divine conceptions---we will not be able to correctly understand (radical) Equality---the shahada (No God/s but God) as a starting point of understanding ethical/moral concepts is a good way to form a world-view that will lead to good and just principles.
            Links:-
            God in Hinduism---https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Fezg2Ss5E

            Comment


            • #7
              Links:-
              The Buddhist concept of Equality
              http://www.totetu.org/assets/media/paper/j020_038.pdf


              Links:-
              God in Hinduism
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9Fezg2Ss5E

              Comment


              • #8
                siam,

                The prophet Muhammad and the Quran are preceded by the prophet Jesus of Nazreth called the Christ and the Christian New Testament which is preceded by the Hebrew prophets, the Hebrew writings preceded by the prophet Moses and the giving of the Law which was preceded by Abraham. In that secession what convinces you that Muhammad is God's prophet as in the saying, "There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God?"

                How do we get there?
                . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by 37818 View Post
                  siam,

                  The prophet Muhammad and the Quran are preceded by the prophet Jesus of Nazreth called the Christ and the Christian New Testament which is preceded by the Hebrew prophets, the Hebrew writings preceded by the prophet Moses and the giving of the Law which was preceded by Abraham. In that secession what convinces you that Muhammad is God's prophet as in the saying, "There is no god but God. Muhammad is the messenger of God?"

                  How do we get there?
                  The answer is simple---but just to clarify, let me explain the term Prophet in the Islamic understanding----
                  There are 2 categories (with a sub category of "Wisdom Teacher)---the 2 Categories are a) Messenger who brings a law (lawgiver) and b) Messenger who restates the universal message (Tawheed).
                  The first Prophet is Prophet Adam. There were many Prophets sent to all communities/nations---some of them are mentioned in the Quran...and some of the Prophets are not mentioned in the Quran.
                  ---Quran says "And, indeed We have sent Messengers before you; of some of them We have related to you their story and of some We have not related to you their story, and it was not given to any Messenger that he should bring a sign except by the Leave of Allah....."(Qur'ân 40:78)
                  All Prophets are equal in God's eyes therefore biblical "succession" is not a criteria in judging "Prophet" especially since God sent Prophets not mentioned in the Bible. That leaves the message---which in the case of Prophet Muhammed, is the Quran.
                  If, upon examination, one concludes that the Quran is a message/Guidance from God---then automatically the other two statements--there is One God and the Prophet is his messenger fall into place.

                  However, for me personally---as I am a "heritage" Muslim, I already had the bias that God exists and that Muhammed ibn Abdulla is an extraordinary person (you can get that from the stories that are told among Muslims and the biographies) so, I only needed convincing that the Quran was a message from God. I am only an average Muslim...but for Muslim scholars the scrutiny and analysis of the Quran is (and should be) very high.

                  If a reader is convinced by the Quran and trusts its claims---then, the person would not have a problem accepting that Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and all the other Prophets mentioned in the Quran were also Messengers of God. Those Prophets/Wisdom Teachers that are not mentioned in the Quran are a grey area and Muslims simply say "God knows best"...neither denying nor affirming.

                  It was probably this attitude as well as the insistence from the Quran (and the Prophet) to pursue knowledge that Muslim scholars had no problem learning from the wisdom of previous civilizations such as the Greeks, Persians, Chinese, Indians...etc...


                  How do we get there?---I assume this means why would God require an Arab Messenger/Prophet? The Quran does answer this.....
                  Prophet Abraham was promised by God that his descendants would be Guided. His descendants through the line of Isaac (pbuh) were indeed guided through a line of Prophets but his descedants through the line of Ishmael (pbuh) had not yet received guidance. To fulfill that promise, the Quran was sent to the people of Mecca (but also to all humanity) in the language (Arabic) that they used through a trustworthy person whom they knew well (the Prophet). (As a young man he was known as Al Amin, the Trustworthy).
                  Prophet Adam was also told by God that his descendants (all of humanity) would be guided if they chose to receive the message...so the Quran also fulfills this.....
                  If we understand that God is most merciful, most compassionate...then it makes sense that he would send guidance (messengers) to humanity for their own benefit?.....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Siam, it appears we are talking past one another. I would be interested in the names of some Muslim scholars you're familiar with. Please list a few notable examples.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Scrawly View Post
                      Siam, it appears we are talking past one another. I would be interested in the names of some Muslim scholars you're familiar with. Please list a few notable examples.
                      LOL! that is an amusing question---because there are so many scholars, I wouldn't know where to begin---but I will stick to those that communicate in English....

                      ...with regards to the subject of this thread---there is an Atheist who read the Quran and chose to be Muslim---Dr Jeffrey Lang. He recounts his experience here:-


                      Other scholars are Sh. Hamza Yusuf, Dr Tariq Ramadan, Dr Sayyid Hossein Nasr, Dr William Chittick, Dr Amina Wadud...etc.
                      Were you asking for a particular type of scholar, or just a general Islamic scholar? (a few of the above mentioned scholars have blogs...can give links if you want to browse their writing....)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Are you familiar with Shabir Ally: holds a B.A. in Religious Studies from Laurentian University in Sudbury, Ontario, with a specialization in Biblical Literature. He also holds an M.A. and a Ph.D from the University of Toronto with a specialization in Quranic Exegesis.

                        http://www.shabirally.com/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I have seen a few of his videos...he is a good scholar---but because he deals in apologetics, and the format of such discourse is necessarily constrained, Islam (its principles, concepts, doctrines) can get a little distorted and/or shallow. Dr Jamal Badawi is another scholar that is enthusiastic about apologetics. It is a good format to dispel misconceptions people may have of the other---but it is not a good way for Muslims to grow in learning about Islam.

                          So what do you find interesting/irritating about Shabir Ally? As a Christian, do you think the apologetics presented by the Christian side adequately represent Christianity?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by siam View Post
                            I have seen a few of his videos...he is a good scholar---but because he deals in apologetics, and the format of such discourse is necessarily constrained, Islam (its principles, concepts, doctrines) can get a little distorted and/or shallow. Dr Jamal Badawi is another scholar that is enthusiastic about apologetics. It is a good format to dispel misconceptions people may have of the other---but it is not a good way for Muslims to grow in learning about Islam.

                            So what do you find interesting/irritating about Shabir Ally? As a Christian, do you think the apologetics presented by the Christian side adequately represent Christianity?
                            I was just wondering what you thought of Shabir, as he seems to be a popular teacher and debater. Yes, I think the popular Christian debaters have adequately represented Christianity. James White in particular has fared very well in many debates with Muslim apologists. Another notable debate would be the debate between Mike Licona and Shabir Ally.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              He has also debated with Craig I think...Many of the Christian speakers speak clearly and it is easy to understand them...they also seem to simplify Christianity to its essence...but what I like the most is that their love for Jesus Christ (pbuh) comes through strongly. Nevertheless, though I can understand how the various pieces of Christian doctrine fit together to make a paradigm...I have failed to make sense of it....despite efforts....and so have mostly given up on understanding it....

                              Do you know of Gabriel Reynolds? He is a Christian and a scholar who also knows Arabic. His views on Islam/Prophet/Quran are interesting. I do not agree with all his views...but nevertheless they are thought provoking, and for me as a Muslim, give new insights and perspectives to think about my own religion....

                              Some of his opinions:---

                              Comment

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