Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

[psstein]

There are plenty of empty tomb and missing body stories in the ancient world. There is one quite similar to the Markan narrative in Chariton's novel Chaereas and Callirhoe. Alcmene, the mother of Hercules, goes missing from a tomb according to Plutarch. Antoninus Liberalis says Aspalis left a tomb behind. There's a story about an empty tomb in the Book of Marvels by Phlegon of Tralles. Caesar and Romulus' bodies go missing. In the Iliad 24 there are 3 women said to have anointed Hector's body. In the Testament of Job, the bodies of Job's children go missing and are assumed to have been removed to heaven.

Most of these "empty tomb" stories bear fairly little resemblance to the NT account. The Iliad has two "servant-girls," not "three women," washing Hector's body.

[tabibito]

Phlegon of Trallus - second century writer familiar with Christian teachings.
Plutarch - Born 46 AD - 13 years after the probable date of crucifixion.
Chaereas - written mid first century.
Antoninus Liberalis - probably post 100 AD

[RhinestoneCowboy]

Most of these "empty tomb" stories bear fairly little resemblance to the NT account. The Iliad has two "servant-girls," not "three women," washing Hector's body.

Irrelevant. The "missing body" motif was used of Romulus, Hercules, Caesar, etc. It was an established literary device during the time period. See Richard Miller's Resurrection and Reception. As for Hector, his mother Hecuba, Andromache and Helen all care for his body.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

Phlegon of Trallus - second century writer familiar with Christian teachings.
Plutarch - Born 46 AD - 13 years after the probable date of crucifixion.
Chaereas - written mid first century.
Antoninus Liberalis - probably post 100 AD

I'm not arguing that the empty tomb in Mark is directly copied from these other stories. I'm arguing that the "missing body" motif was common in ancient literature. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Livy, and Ovid all predate the New Testament and provide a wealth of parallels. The actual dating of Chaereas and Callirhoe is 50 BCE to 50CE which even at the latest is still before the composition of Mark. http://www.debunking-christianity.co...pared.html?m=1

[psstein]

Irrelevant. The "missing body" motif was used of Romulus, Hercules, Caesar. It was an established literary device during the time period. See Richard Miller's Resurrection and Reception. As for Hector, his mother Hecuba, Andromache and Helen all care for his body.

It's perfectly relevant, because it looks like you're distorting what the Iliad says in order to score rhetorical points.

And no, it's not irrelevant in the least. I'll grant the missing body motif isn't uncommon, but the situations (and often outcomes) of the "missing body" are quite different.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

It's perfectly relevant, because it looks like you're distorting what the Iliad says in order to score rhetorical points.

And no, it's not irrelevant in the least. I'll grant the missing body motif isn't uncommon, but the situations (and often outcomes) of the "missing body" are quite different.

Thanks for your input. All the story of Mark conveys is that Jesus' body went missing. This was, as you admit, a common literary device used. As for differences, of course there were! That's what we expect. The Iliad still says 3 women cared for Hector's body so I'm not sure what the problem is. I'm not saying "Therefore, this was copied by Mark." I'm just saying there are similar stories in the Greco-Roman literature. You don't learn to read or write in Greek without being influenced by the stories and culture.

[One Bad Pig]

It's perfectly relevant, because it looks like you're distorting what the Iliad says in order to score rhetorical points.

And no, it's not irrelevant in the least. I'll grant the missing body motif isn't uncommon, but the situations (and often outcomes) of the "missing body" are quite different.

You just can't keep a good narrative down. Obviously, because the missing body motif sometimes happened in literature, Mark made the whole thing up. Duh. What more proof could you possibly want?

[Tassman]

It's perfectly relevant, because it looks like you're distorting what the Iliad says in order to score rhetorical points.

And no, it's not irrelevant in the least. I'll grant the missing body motif isn't uncommon, but the situations (and often outcomes) of the "missing body" are quite different.

As Bart Ehrman says, ANY natural explanation for the missing body, e.g. theft, is more probable that positing a miracle. "Miracles are so highly improbable that they’re the least possible occurrence in any given instance. They violate the way nature naturally works." College of the Holy Cross Debate.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-th...e-craig-ehrman

[psstein]

As Bart Ehrman says, ANY natural explanation for the missing body, e.g. theft, is more probable that positing a miracle. "Miracles are so highly improbable that they’re the least possible occurrence in any given instance. They violate the way nature naturally works." College of the Holy Cross Debate.

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/is-th...e-craig-ehrman

You really must have bad reading comprehension. I'm not arguing for any sort of divine causation here. Frankly, that's not the topic that really interests me in the discussion I'm having with RC. He's saying that there's a significant theme of "missing bodies" in ancient literature. I readily grant that premise. However, what I don't grant is his attempt to characterize the empty tomb narrative as somehow derivative of this theme. If you look at the ancient sources where the body goes missing, it's a completely different situation from the NT accounts.

Richard Miller's book has a few summaries of ancient texts with this theme: https://books.google.com/books?id=6G...20body&f=false

I really don't want to debate Ehrman's attempt to use David Hume's heavily debated work on miracles. Hume's argument fails on a few premises, the most notable one is that he's notoriously skeptical about causation in the first place.

[Tassman]

You really must have bad reading comprehension. I'm not arguing for any sort of divine causation here. Frankly, that's not the topic that really interests me in the discussion I'm having with RC. He's saying that there's a significant theme of "missing bodies" in ancient literature. I readily grant that premise. However, what I don't grant is his attempt to characterize the empty tomb narrative as somehow derivative of this theme. If you look at the ancient sources where the body goes missing, it's a completely different situation from the NT accounts.

Why would you argue that the Jesus “empty tomb narrative is different in kind than the many other 'missing bodies' and 'empty tomb' stories in ancient literature?

Richard Miller's book has a few summaries of ancient texts with this theme: https://books.google.com/books?id=6G...20body&f=false

I don’t think Miller says what you think he says:

“This is the way stories were told about exceptional people. Miller claims that the early Christian would have heard these stories and understood them fictively. He demonstrates, through a vast collection of selected readings, that the depictions of Jesus in the gospels, indeed in the whole New Testament, are typical of the mythic storytelling style of that period. Everything from miracles, missing bodies, mountain top speeches, ascensions, taken away in a cloud, dubious alternative accounts, immortal/heavenly body, bright and shining appearance, resurrection appearances, meeting on the road… the list goes on… are all frequently and popularly employed methods to convey a hero’s story. They would have read it fictively”.

https://nakedpastor.com/2015/05/did-...-resurrection/

I really don't want to debate Ehrman's attempt to use David Hume's heavily debated work on miracles. Hume's argument fails on a few premises, the most notable one is that he's notoriously skeptical about causation in the first place.

David Hume is generally regarded as one of the most important philosophers to write in English and his “work on miracles” can’t be lightly dismissed. But, I suppose this is irrelevant if you’re going for the “fictive” notion of the empty tomb as per Richard Miller.

[tabibito]

I'm not arguing that the empty tomb in Mark is directly copied from these other stories. I'm arguing that the "missing body" motif was common in ancient literature. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Livy, and Ovid all predate the New Testament and provide a wealth of parallels. The actual dating of Chaereas and Callirhoe is 50 BCE to 50CE which even at the latest is still before the composition of Mark. http://www.debunking-christianity.co...pared.html?m=1

The names in the first list that you offered all post date the resurrection account (whether written or not) of Christianity - if any copying occurred (which is doubtful), it was copied FROM the Christian narratives, NOT by them. It is also noted that the Wisdom of Solomon dates to the same time frame as Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Titus Livius (Livy) was born sometime between 59 and 64 AD, again, probably 23 years after the crucifixion. That leaves Ovid - who makes mention of a cenotaph: a tomb that was



NEVER OCCUPIED.

[One Bad Pig]

I don’t think Miller says what you think he says:

“This is the way stories were told about exceptional people. Miller claims that the early Christian would have heard these stories and understood them fictively. He demonstrates, through a vast collection of selected readings, that the depictions of Jesus in the gospels, indeed in the whole New Testament, are typical of the mythic storytelling style of that period. Everything from miracles, missing bodies, mountain top speeches, ascensions, taken away in a cloud, dubious alternative accounts, immortal/heavenly body, bright and shining appearance, resurrection appearances, meeting on the road… the list goes on… are all frequently and popularly employed methods to convey a hero’s story. They would have read it fictively”.

https://nakedpastor.com/2015/05/did-...-resurrection/

You have an amazing amount of faith in the idea that a book review is necessarily going to accurately and adequately capture the content of the book reviewed.

[rogue06]

The names in the first list that you offered all post date the resurrection account (whether written or not) of Christianity - if any copying occurred (which is doubtful), it was copied FROM the Christian narratives, NOT by them. It is also noted that the Wisdom of Solomon dates to the same time frame as Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Titus Livius (Livy) was born sometime between 59 and 64 AD, again, probably 23 years after the crucifixion. That leaves Ovid - who makes mention of a cenotaph: a tomb that was



NEVER OCCUPIED.

This is often the problem with the claims of parallel accounts. Scratch the surface and you find that they are either anything but or came about later.

[RhinestoneCowboy]

The names in the first list that you offered all post date the resurrection account (whether written or not) of Christianity - if any copying occurred (which is doubtful), it was copied FROM the Christian narratives, NOT by them. It is also noted that the Wisdom of Solomon dates to the same time frame as Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Titus Livius (Livy) was born sometime between 59 and 64 AD, again, probably 23 years after the crucifixion. That leaves Ovid - who makes mention of a cenotaph: a tomb that was

Livy was born 59 BCE and you're still assuming the time period "right after the crucifixion" is exactly when Mark's empty tomb narrative must have been composed. Most scholars date Mark around 70 CE. That's still about a 40 year gap and there is no conclusive evidence that the empty tomb story existed prior to that point. Both the Wisdom of Solomon and Dionysius of Halicarnassus date to late 1st century BCE. There's still the similar empty tomb story in Chariton's novel which probably predates Mark. It says Chaereas "arrived at the tomb at daybreak" where he "found the stones removed and the entrance open. At that he took fright."

psstein already provided a link with numerous other contemporary tales that employ the "missing body" motif. https://books.google.com/books?id=6G...20body&f=false

[tabibito]

It is not necessary that anything be written for a narrative to exist. Most stories are never committed to writing.

I was wrong about the date for Livy.

However, checking Metamorphoses - the story you're pointing to has parallels with the story of Elijah - an Old Testament account. There are some superficial points in the story that are similar to Mark's account, but nothing that would stretch the boundaries of coincidence.