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Thread: Gary & Rhinestone's Thread on Burial and Resurrection of Christ

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    The same or similar in nature, yes. If Paul makes no distinction or gives any reason to think they're different then why are you assuming that they must be?
    Are you perhaps committed to the later gospel depictions instead of reading Paul on his own? Paul's letters, were in fact written, before any of the gospel stories
    and don't contain any of the amazing physical details found in them.

    1. Paul equates the appearances with the same verb for "appeared" ὤφθη (Greek – ōphthē) which was commonly used throughout the Septuagint to describe spiritual visionary appearances. There are other Greek words Paul could have used for "physically seeing" such as θεάομαι (theaomai) or θεωρέω (theoreo) but he does not do that in the passage. The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (vol. V, p. 358) points out that in this type of context the word is a technical term for being “in the presence of revelation as such, without reference to the nature of its perception.” In other words, the “seeing” may not refer to actual sensory or mental perception. “The dominant thought is that the appearances are revelations, an encounter with the risen Lord who reveals himself…they experienced his presence.”

    2. He includes his appearance in the same list as the others while giving no distinction between them.

    3. Paul's vision is used in order to claim apostleship in 1 Cor 9:1, arguing that he saw the exact same thing the other apostles did. The passage implies that "seeing" Jesus is a requirement for being an apostle. But Paul only "sees" Jesus in a vision implying that the other apostles must have "seen" Jesus in a similar way. Basically, he's saying "I saw Jesus just like you guys did! Can I join the apostles now?!"

    4. Throughout the entire Pauline corpus he only says that the Risen Jesus was experienced in "visions" and "revelations" so we have no reason to think that the disciples experienced Jesus in a way more physical than that.



    Yeah. If Jesus' physical revivified corpse was actually touched, why no mention from Paul about this? Why instead do we only hear about "visions" and "revelations" of the Lord
    and never anything more physical than that? Paul does not say "Jesus appeared to me in a vision only whereas the appearances to the others involved touching a physically
    revived corpse that later flew to heaven"
    - that distinction is never made.
    Before I answer your question in bold, let me ask you you this; do you believe Paul is teaching a spiritual material body resurrection in 1 Cor 15 or an immaterial body resurrection?

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  3. #22
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    Before I answer your question in bold, let me ask you you this; do you believe Paul is teaching a spiritual material body resurrection in 1 Cor 15 or an immaterial body resurrection?
    See post #10. I think the "body" Paul was speaking about was thought to be made of some sort of "material"
    (pneuma?), but it was located in heaven, not earth. This corresponds to other Hellenistic-Jewish beliefs at the
    time and is even corroborated by what Josephus says of the Pharisees beliefs.

    This sure would explain why Paul only references "visions" and "revelations" of Jesus instead of anything resembling
    touching a formerly dead revivified corpse that was up and walking around. Assuming Paul was actually speaking of
    a fully resuscitated corpse creates problems due to his silence of such an amazing noteworthy episode. This is why
    Paul's equating of the appearances/visions in 1 Cor 15:5-8 is such a strong point of the argument. It also explains
    the exaltation Christology throughout Paul's letters - Rom. 8.34; 10.5-8; Eph. 1.19-23; 2.6-7; 4.7-10 Col. 3.1-4;
    Phil. 2.8-9; 1 Tim. 3.16. That is, the view where Christ's resurrection seemed to involve a simultaneous exaltation
    to heaven rather than being resurrected to earth.

    However, I'd like to clarify for discussing the "resurrection body," (and this is for seer too), that Paul seems to change his
    anthropological terminology based on who he's talking to throughout his letters. This makes it difficult to pin down a
    consistent view from Paul.

    "In part this is because he evinces no concern to develop a consistent view of human nature. Even though he uses a
    variety of Greek anthropological terms to explain aspects of human behavior in sections of his letters, he often does
    so on an ad hoc basis with the result that there is little overall consistency evident when these passages are compared.
    Paul was an eclectic who drew upon a variety of anthropological conceptions in a manner subsidiary or tangential to the
    more immediate concerns he addresses in his extant letters."
    - David Aune
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XT...page&q&f=false

    "Paul was neither systematic nor completely consistent in his (admittedly random) statements about human nature."
    ibid pg. 386
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-10-2016 at 10:24 PM.

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    See post #10. I think the "body" Paul was speaking about was thought to be made of some sort of "material"
    (pneuma?), but it was located in heaven, not earth. This corresponds to other Hellenistic-Jewish beliefs at the
    time and is even corroborated by what Josephus says of the Pharisees beliefs.

    This sure would explain why Paul only references "visions" and "revelations" of Jesus instead of anything resembling
    touching a formerly dead revivified corpse that was up and walking around. Assuming Paul was actually speaking of
    a fully resuscitated corpse creates problems due to his silence of such an amazing noteworthy episode. This is why
    Paul's equating of the appearances/visions in 1 Cor 15:5-8 is such a strong point of the argument. It also explains
    the exaltation Christology throughout Paul's letters - Rom. 8.34; 10.5-8; Eph. 1.19-23; 2.6-7; 4.7-10 Col. 3.1-4;
    Phil. 2.8-9; 1 Tim. 3.16. That is, the view where Christ's resurrection seemed to involve a simultaneous exaltation
    to heaven rather than being resurrected to earth.

    However, I'd like to clarify for discussing the "resurrection body," (and this is for seer too), that Paul seems to change his
    anthropological terminology based on who he's talking to throughout his letters. This makes it difficult to pin down a
    consistent view from Paul.

    "In part this is because he evinces no concern to develop a consistent view of human nature. Even though he uses a
    variety of Greek anthropological terms to explain aspects of human behavior in sections of his letters, he often does
    so on an ad hoc basis with the result that there is little overall consistency evident when these passages are compared.
    Paul was an eclectic who drew upon a variety of anthropological conceptions in a manner subsidiary or tangential to the
    more immediate concerns he addresses in his extant letters."
    - David Aune
    https://books.google.com/books?id=XT...page&q&f=false

    "Paul was neither systematic nor completely consistent in his (admittedly random) statements about human nature."
    ibid pg. 386
    So, your premise is that Paul was correlating the type of material body he's going to great pains to describe to the Greeks with the body Jesus had during his encounter near Damascus, but not the resurrected body we read about in the gospels?

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  7. #24
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanD View Post
    So, your premise is that Paul was correlating the type of material body he's going to great pains to describe to the Greeks with the body Jesus had during his encounter near Damascus, but not the resurrected body we read about in the gospels?
    I would say yes but the Acts account doesn't actually describe anyone "seeing" a "body" anywhere. I agree that Paul's idea of the
    resurrected body was not the type of body that we read about in the gospels. It was a spiritual/heavenly body - 1 Cor 15:40,
    15:44, not a flesh and blood formerly dead corpse. Moreover, the 40 day period followed by physical ascension into heaven isn't
    mentioned until Luke/Acts which was written after the resurrection had become a wholly physical empty tomb type revivification.
    The 40 day period followed by ascension is nowhere found in Paul, Mark or Matthew.
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-10-2016 at 10:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    How do you explain Paul saying there are different types of bodies in 1 Cor 15:40 and 15:44?
    That our present physical body takes on a new dimension (so it is different, just more). It is added to (clothed in immortality) but not destroyed or lost.

    Also, how do you interpret 2 Cor 5:1-4 in
    light of being "naked" meaning the soul has been separated from the body? What's you take on Josephus when he says the Pharisees
    believe souls are "removed into other bodies" in heaven? Paul was a Pharisee, right?
    I have no idea if Paul believed the same things as Josephus, but Christians do generally believe that the spirit is separated from the physical body at death. And that someday our spirit will be reunited with our new, glorified, physical body. That our lowly bodies (soma) will be transformed be like the glorified body of Christ. I don't think that there is any question that Paul believed that our physical body (soma) is present in the future resurrection. And it is interesting that when Paul speaks of Christ's glorified body, in Phil. 3:21 he again uses the term soma. And as far as I know soma is only used in the N.T. for a physical body.
    “The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.” D.H. Lawrence

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    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    That our present physical body takes on a new dimension (so it is different, just more). It is added to (clothed in immortality) but not destroyed or lost.
    Paul seems to imply that the earthly body can be destroyed.

    "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed" - 2 Cor 5:1

    In 1 Cor 15:37 Paul uses a seed plant metaphor which can be interpreted as the seed (earthly body) dies or goes away and from it sprouts a plant (spiritual body).
    There is continuity in that it is the same person but also discontinuity in that the plant no longer resembles the seed - "you do not plant the body that will be."

    We know at least, that the verse was interpreted this way among certain Christians.

    "For consider, if you please, the dying of seasons, and days, and nights, how these also die and rise again. And what? Is there not a resurrection going on of seeds and fruits, and this, too, for the use of men? A seed of wheat, for example, or of the other grains, when it is cast into the earth, first dies and rots away, then is raised, and becomes a stalk of corn."
    - Theophilus of Antioch to Autolycus

    I have no idea if Paul believed the same things as Josephus, but Christians do generally believe that the spirit is separated from the physical body at death. And that someday our spirit will be reunited with our new, glorified, physical body. That our lowly bodies (soma) will be transformed be like the glorified body of Christ. I don't think that there is any question that Paul believed that our physical body (soma) is present in the future resurrection. And it is interesting that when Paul speaks of Christ's glorified body, in Phil. 3:21 he again uses the term soma. And as far as I know soma is only used in the N.T. for a physical body.
    So if Paul knew that Peter and James actually saw and touched the physical resurrected body of Jesus on earth then watched him physically ascend to heaven, why does he only
    mention that the Risen Jesus was experienced in a spiritual/mystical way?
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-10-2016 at 10:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    Paul seems to imply that the earthly body can be destroyed.

    "For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed" - 2 Cor 5:1

    In 1 Cor 15:37 Paul uses a seed plant metaphor which can be interpreted as the seed (earthly body) dies or goes away and from it sprouts a plant (spiritual body).
    There is continuity in that it is the same person but also discontinuity in that the plant no longer resembles the seed - "you do not plant the body that will be."
    So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
    Rhinestone, what is the IT in these passages? The physical body?

    So if Paul knew that Peter and James actually saw and touched the physical resurrected body of Jesus on earth then watched him physically ascend to heaven, why does he only mention experiencing Jesus in a spiritual/mystical way?
    Why do you say that?
    “The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.” D.H. Lawrence

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  15. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    I would say yes but the Acts account doesn't actually describe anyone "seeing" a "body" anywhere. I agree that Paul's idea of the
    resurrected body was not the type of body that we read about in the gospels. It was a spiritual/heavenly body - 1 Cor 15:40,
    15:44, not a flesh and blood formerly dead corpse. Moreover, the 40 day period followed by physical ascension into heaven isn't
    mentioned until Luke/Acts which was written after the resurrection had become a wholly physical empty tomb type revivification.
    The 40 day period followed by ascension is nowhere found in Paul, Mark or Matthew.
    But how can you correlate a material body Paul is asserting in 1 Cor 15 with his encounter in Acts since, as you admit, Paul didn't see a body, nor did the men that were with him? Paul saw a light and heard a voice. The only ones that encountered a material body were the disciples he lists in that group and we know this only from the gospels. So without the gospels, there's no tradition to fill that void. Also, I again don't see how this works for you as a nonbeliever. Paul acknowledges that all these eyewitnesses saw something they believed was a material body so how does that work for you as a nonbeliever? It's pretty absurd to assume they were all hallucinating the same thing at different times.

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  17. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhinestoneCowboy View Post
    I would say yes but the Acts account doesn't actually describe anyone "seeing" a "body" anywhere.
    Except Acts does teach a physical resurrection: Acts 13:

    33. this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,

    o“‘You are my Son,today I have begotten you.’

    34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,

    “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’

    35 Therefore he says also in another psalm,

    s“‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’

    36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, 37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.

    So David's body did see corruption, Jesus' body did not.
    “The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted.” D.H. Lawrence

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  19. #30
    tWebber RhinestoneCowboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Rhinestone, what is the IT in these passages? The physical body?
    You're reading an English translation. The Greek word for "IT" is not actually in the passage.
    The natural/earthly body is sown while the heavenly/spiritual body is raised. Paul differentiates
    the two bodies.

    Why do you say that?
    Does Paul mention that he or the disciples experienced the Risen Christ in a way more physical than a vision?
    Have you discovered a new source?

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Except Acts does teach a physical resurrection: Acts 13:




    So David's body did see corruption, Jesus' body did not.
    I realize Acts teaches a physical resurrection. It was written later c. 85 CE by Luke who believed in the empty tomb.
    My point was that the account does not describe what Paul actually "saw." It only says that he heard a voice from
    heaven and saw a bright light.
    Last edited by RhinestoneCowboy; 05-11-2016 at 12:36 AM.

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