for the agnostic or atheist

[Mose]

How many unbelievers here have had a prayer life and what was it like?

[Ratnat]

How many unbelievers here have had a prayer life and what was it like?

I assume you mean were former theists. I was a believer for most of my life. My life hasn't changed that much nor have I changed. I still attend services occasionally, engage in Bible study, etc...As far as prayer, I still have my moments in meditation--both are great stress reducers.

I did have a rough transition though...long-held beliefs are hard to let go of sometimes. I attended a support group from a local seminary a couple of times that helped put it all in perspective. It is actually quite common for students of theology. Many still go on to be priests or ministers. Many followers would be surprised how many Pastors are actually deists rather than theists.

[Carpedm9587]

How many unbelievers here have had a prayer life and what was it like?

"Unbelievers" is such a silly word. I've never had an "unbelief" in my life. Is that something like an uncola?

I believe the universe exists without a god. I believe that gods are a cultural phenomenon - a vestige of our evolution both biologically and culturally.

As for a prayer life, I was Christian for many years, and went to seminary for 5 of those. I had what I would have called a very rich prayer life then. In the seminary, a significant portion of my day was spent in prayer. Prayer wasn't just the time spent in chapel, or on my knees. It was an attitude of life. I believed god was with me each moment of each day and prayer was continuous dialogue with this constant companion.

Michel

[EvoUK]

Hmm, "prayer life", interesting term.

It was a very unmoving experience. Hard having one-way conversations.

[Alchemist]

I thought it was pretty good. Until I realized I was talking to myself.

[spitndirt]

I thought it was pretty good. Until I realized I was talking to myself.

Hmmm....I wondered if I wasn't just talking to myself until I was actually answered. So...I'm either a full-blown schiziod or God can speak. Regardless it's really fun being me now......fun for me, I mean. Those around me aren't particularly amused......

[Carpedm9587]

Hmmm....I wondered if I wasn't just talking to myself until I was actually answered. So...I'm either a full-blown schiziod or God can speak. Regardless it's really fun being me now......fun for me, I mean. Those around me aren't particularly amused......

I'd be curious to know what that means. I too thought I was "actually answered" many times. Turns out I was basically talking to myself. So what "answer" did you get that proved to you that you were not talking to yourself?

Michel

[Doug Shaver]

I wondered if I wasn't just talking to myself until I was actually answered. So...I'm either a full-blown schiziod or God can speak.

Can you say "false dichotomy"?

[spitndirt]

I'd be curious to know what that means. I too thought I was "actually answered" many times. Turns out I was basically talking to myself. So what "answer" did you get that proved to you that you were not talking to yourself?

Michel

Well, the context from where I spoke to God when I was answered proved to be everything. It was from the 11'th floor of a VA Hospital, which was the drug and alchohol rehab center. I was taken there strung out on meth weighing a whopping 112 lb,s and not so far from death. I had tried for years to escape my addiction but I couldn't overcome it. One night I had determined that I would finish this one last stint in rehab and then go out and finish the job. I resigned to the fact that I was powerless to save myself and that when death came it would finally bring peace. In the same moment as I lay their in bed I spoke into the air saying '...God, if you exist I do not know it and I do not know you. Yet here I am - a dead man walking - and if you can hear me it's all in your hands cuz I'm tired and cannot go on any longer...'. The very next day my addiction was gone and for the first time ever I began to hear what people were really saying. This may sound weird...but these are the two things that stick with me. I did finish my stint in rehab and have been clean for 17 years. What I could not do myself another apparently could...and did.

But how do I know this was God??? Well, consider for yourself: He is the only one I spoke to that night and about a year later I picked up a bible and flipped to a page and keyed in on a verse and read '...Call on me in your day of trouble and I will answer you and deliver you and you will glorify me...'. Woe.....to me this was not just coincidence cuz this is precisely what had happened in my case. I could not deny in my own mind the obvious. I have been seeking and finding this God ever since.

This is what I would say.......

[spitndirt]

Can you say "false dichotomy"?

Why....yes, I can. ...and so can I

[the_light]

How many unbelievers here have had a prayer life and what was it like?

When I was a Christian I had a very active prayer life. I guess some context would be good... I have a VERY Christian family & extended family. I attended both Christian and secular schools while growing up (B.S. from secular university). I always attended church, and later I started more in depth participation, including teaching and other forms of leadership.

What was it like?

I think I had a very typical experience. I prayed at least once a day (minus the cheesy mealtime rituals)... and periodically would get in the habit of praying multiple times throughout the day. To be blunt (and probably offensive to some), it was like having a good buddy around, all the time. I didn't see God as Santa though, I had great respect for God and his scriptures. I was very... "hopeful". I had a lot of faith and trust in God. I viewed "Christianity" as the "religion", while my relationship with God was something entirely different, something deep and very real. I was often embarrassed to pray out loud, because my "conversations" with God were so intimate, extremely personal - I had no hesitation in the 'real' prayers that occupied my quiet time.

God made me cry. He was like a mirror. When I prayed I could see myself through the eyes of who I wanted to be. A better man. The perfect son. The best of best friend to my friends. A righteous person being molded into something better for my future wife. This reflection is what I miss most about Christianity. I no longer take the time to meditate on my day, my life, myself...

I'm not sure exactly what you want... so... there you go.

[Carpedm9587]

Well, the context from where I spoke to God when I was answered proved to be everything. It was from the 11'th floor of a VA Hospital, which was the drug and alcohol rehab center. I was taken there strung out on meth weighing a whopping 112 lb,s and not so far from death. I had tried for years to escape my addiction but I couldn't overcome it. One night I had determined that I would finish this one last stint in rehab and then go out and finish the job. I resigned to the fact that I was powerless to save myself and that when death came it would finally bring peace. In the same moment as I lay their in bed I spoke into the air saying '...God, if you exist I do not know it and I do not know you. Yet here I am - a dead man walking - and if you can hear me it's all in your hands cuz I'm tired and cannot go on any longer...'. The very next day my addiction was gone and for the first time ever I began to hear what people were really saying. This may sound weird...but these are the two things that stick with me. I did finish my stint in rehab and have been clean for 17 years. What I could not do myself another apparently could...and did.

But how do I know this was God??? Well, consider for yourself: He is the only one I spoke to that night and about a year later I picked up a bible and flipped to a page and keyed in on a verse and read '...Call on me in your day of trouble and I will answer you and deliver you and you will glorify me...'. Woe.....to me this was not just coincidence cuz this is precisely what had happened in my case. I could not deny in my own mind the obvious. I have been seeking and finding this God ever since.

This is what I would say.......

I am glad you are off drugs and clean, Spit, but I have to admit I see nothing of a god here. These stories happen periodically. They are emotionally compelling, but you don't know that it wasn't merely you that did this for yourself. This is somewhat akin to the survivor of the train wreck chalking up their salvation to some supernatural force. But the human mind is an incredible instrument. At times, it can step in to save itself in ways the individual is unaware of - and at times it can turn on itself and destroy. Which it does at any given time is a function of variables so convoluted and complex we can't identify all of them, never mind analyze them.

But I can understand why you would see it this way. I had a similar experience (though not related to drugs) that was the initial cause of my Christian conversion. I was Christian for almost two decades.

Thanks for sharing the story.

Michel

[spitndirt]

I am glad you are off drugs and clean, Spit, but I have to admit I see nothing of a god here. These stories happen periodically. They are emotionally compelling, but you don't know that it wasn't merely you that did this for yourself. This is somewhat akin to the survivor of the train wreck chalking up their salvation to some supernatural force. But the human mind is an incredible instrument. At times, it can step in to save itself in ways the individual is unaware of - and at times it can turn on itself and destroy. Which it does at any given time is a function of variables so convoluted and complex we can't identify all of them, never mind analyze them.

But I can understand why you would see it this way. I had a similar experience (though not related to drugs) that was the initial cause of my Christian conversion. I was Christian for almost two decades.

Thanks for sharing the story.

Michel

Hi Michel, Thanks for your thoughts.

I can also see why you would think the way you do. I have wondered at times whether my experience was real or not. I keep falling back on the fact that I could never find the power to change until I sought an unknown outside myself. And that this change was so abrupt and immediate. Not only concerning my addiction but also in the way I began to hear people differently. Then there was the scriptures ....and the fact that I have grown in knowledge and understanding since. I realize that there are plausible non-spiritual explanations for each of these things....so it really is a matter of faith in the end.

I find it curious that after two decades you gave up on Christianity. I had also given up on what is known as modern Christianity.....after only about a decade (which is why I am a heretic according to orthodoxy). Their doctrinal stances just didn't match my initial experience nor my experiences since. Instead of concluding that Christianity was not the way I simply deduced that the modern church(es) were the ones missing the forrest for the trees. So we seem to have come to a similar conclusion in a sense....and yet have gone in different directions as a result. Had you ever considered that the church might have it all wrong and that God may still be God regardless? I mean, the scriptures do speak of a great falling away from Truth. Not trying to convince you or anything.....just pointing out another possibility.

Peace....

[Pitchforkpat]

I have wondered at times whether my experience was real or not.

My take is that if you were actually talking to god, there would be no ambiguity, or ambivalence. The fact that you had any doubt means that it could have been a hallucination, especially given the state you were in. I find this kind of anecdote no more convincing than people who claim to have been abducted by aliens.

(which is why I am a heretic according to orthodoxy).

Can you give me an example of your heresy?

[Carpedm9587]

Hi Michel, Thanks for your thoughts.

I can also see why you would think the way you do. I have wondered at times whether my experience was real or not. I keep falling back on the fact that I could never find the power to change until I sought an unknown outside myself. And that this change was so abrupt and immediate. Not only concerning my addiction but also in the way I began to hear people differently. Then there was the scriptures ....and the fact that I have grown in knowledge and understanding since. I realize that there are plausible non-spiritual explanations for each of these things....so it really is a matter of faith in the end.

Yes - it is. And it is not a faith I find compelling any longer. It simply doesn't fit.

I find it curious that after two decades you gave up on Christianity. I had also given up on what is known as modern Christianity.....after only about a decade (which is why I am a heretic according to orthodoxy). Their doctrinal stances just didn't match my initial experience nor my experiences since. Instead of concluding that Christianity was not the way I simply deduced that the modern church(es) were the ones missing the forest for the trees. So we seem to have come to a similar conclusion in a sense....and yet have gone in different directions as a result. Had you ever considered that the church might have it all wrong and that God may still be God regardless?

I explored that possibility. But, when all was said and done, I couldn't buy it. There was simply nothing to substantiate the existence of a god.

I mean, the scriptures do speak of a great falling away from Truth. Not trying to convince you or anything.....just pointing out another possibility.

Peace....

I acknowledge the possibility that I am wrong, Spit. But I have not, in the last 20 years, seen anything that leads me to believe I actually am in fact wrong. Perhaps that day will come. I had no clue I would someday be atheist when I was Christian - so I am in no position to say I will never be Christian again now that I am atheist.

But until I have cause to BE Christian again, atheist I will remain. If your god exists, and created me, then this god knows this about me. It's apparently the way he/she/it made me. If he/she/it is not providing sufficient basis on which to form a belief, then either he/she/it does not want me to believe, or he/she/it does not exist. I suppose there's a possibility I'm simply missing the provided information, but that doesn't seem very likely to me. However, if someone wants to point out what/how I'm missing - I'll be happy to consider it.

Michel