Pattern

[Seraphim333]

The US spends a lot of money exploring space, which includes looking for intelligent life. We search the stars for patterns of signals, because patterns usually lead to intelligent design behind them. Periodic Table anyone?

[Clubbaseal]

Are you asserting that the periodic table indicates an intelligence behind the modes of creation?

[John Powell]

The US spends a lot of money exploring space, which includes looking for intelligent life. We search the stars for patterns of signals, because patterns usually lead to intelligent design behind them. Periodic Table anyone?

POWELL:
Some patterns suggest intelligence, others do not.

For example, stars emit light which has a pattern to it. Should scientists conclude that stars are intelligent?

John Powell

[Carpedm9587]

The US spends a lot of money exploring space, which includes looking for intelligent life. We search the stars for patterns of signals, because patterns usually lead to intelligent design behind them. Periodic Table anyone?

Welcome to Tweb, Sera.

Unfortunately, the argument that "pattern" implies "intelligence" is not sustainable. At best, it's circular.

Michel

[Seraphim333]

1. yes I am saying God intelligently made the universe, got a problem with that?

2. I am not saying patterns show intelligence, but many athiests do, I was saying they look out into the stars to find life and yet they cannot look at the world they are in and see that this world was made purposfully

[Zeluvia]

atheists?

Hello, have you surveyed the members of S.E.T.I and have confirmation they are atheists? Have you surveyed the appropriations committee and organizations that fund S.E.T.I. and confirmed the percent of atheists involved? Numbers please.

Or do you conflate scientist with atheist like the rest of your ignorant ilk?

And what kind of patterns do they search for? Do you know the difference between a pattern they consider "natural" and one they might consider being from something "intelligent"?

Do you know what a pulsar is?

We have been broadcasting radio waves into space since the 1950's.....what kind of "pattern" do they make?

[Carpedm9587]

1. yes I am saying God intelligently made the universe, got a problem with that?

The only problem have is that it is a claim without adequate substantiation. Ergo, I have no reason to believe it is true.

2. I am not saying patterns show intelligence, but many atheists do,

Many atheists show intelligence? Why thank you!

I was saying they look out into the stars to find life and yet they cannot look at the world they are in and see that this world was made purposefully

If two halves of a sentence were never intended to go together, these would be they. What on earth does searching the universe for other planets with life have to do with deciding things were "created purposefully?"

You have little or no basis for the claim things were "created purposefully," Sera. The argument badly begs the question (if it takes its usual form).

Michel

[Carpedm9587]

atheists?

Hello, have you surveyed the members of S.E.T.I and have confirmation they are atheists? Have you surveyed the appropriations committee and organizations that fund S.E.T.I. and confirmed the percent of atheists involved? Numbers please.

Or do you conflate scientist with atheist like the rest of your ignorant ilk?

And what kind of patterns do they search for? Do you know the difference between a pattern they consider "natural" and one they might consider being from something "intelligent"?

Do you know what a pulsar is?

We have been broadcasting radio waves into space since the 1950's.....what kind of "pattern" do they make?

Indeed - I think it is sometimes ignored that we make both patterns and non-patterns - as does the rest of nature.

Michel

[John Powell]

1. yes I am saying God intelligently made the universe, got a problem with that?

POWELL:
It's a reasonable position, but not IMO as reasonable as atheism.

Seraphim:
2. I am not saying patterns show intelligence, but many athiests [atheists] do, I was saying they look out into the stars to find life and yet they cannot look at the world they are in and see that this world was made purposfully [purposefully.]

POWELL:
Aren't theists also looking for evidence of alien life?

It's not that atheists CAN'T see divine purpose in the world, but they don't. They are atheists, but they're able to change their opinion. They could become theists if the patterns they saw persuaded them to believe the world was made purposefully.

John Powell

[John Powell]

Indeed - I think it is sometimes ignored that we make both patterns and non-patterns - as does the rest of nature.

Michel

POWELL:
What would be a good example of a "non pattern"? Do you think phrases like "chaotic pattern" and "scattered pattern" and "random pattern" are oxymorons?

John Powell

[Carpedm9587]

POWELL:
What would be a good example of a "non pattern"? Do you think phrases like "chaotic pattern" and "scattered pattern" and "random pattern" are oxymorons?

John Powell

While the term pattern can be used broadly to refer to any observed layout (as you have used it above), it's use here was more in line with these definitions:

• form: a perceptual structure; "the composition presents problems for students of musical form"; "a visual pattern must include not only objects ...
• design: a decorative or artistic work; "the coach had a design on the doors"
  convention: something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors"
• blueprint: something intended as a guide for making something else; "a blueprint for a house"; "a pattern for a skirt"
• model: plan or create according to a model or models

Ergo, a non-pattern (in this context) might be the paint spots resulting on my drop cloth when I paint the ceiling. The flour spills on my kitchen counter when I bake form little or no discernable pattern. The shingles on my roof form a pattern, but the discarded scraps in my trash barrel do not (except for the over-all shape imposed by the trash can).

Context is (almost) everything.

Michel

[John Powell]

While the term pattern can be used broadly to refer to any observed layout (as you have used it above), it's [its] use here was more in line with these definitions:

• form: a perceptual structure; "the composition presents problems for students of musical form"; "a visual pattern must include not only objects ...
• design: a decorative or artistic work; "the coach had a design on the doors"
  convention: something regarded as a normative example; "the convention of not naming the main character"; "violence is the rule not the exception"; "his formula for impressing visitors"
• blueprint: something intended as a guide for making something else; "a blueprint for a house"; "a pattern for a skirt"
• model: plan or create according to a model or models

Ergo, a non-pattern (in this context) might be the paint spots resulting on my drop cloth when I paint the ceiling. The flour spills on my kitchen counter when I bake form little or no discernable pattern. The shingles on my roof form a pattern, but the discarded scraps in my trash barrel do not (except for the over-all shape imposed by the trash can).

Context is (almost) everything.

Michel

POWELL:
Thanks for explaining what you mean, but you seem to contradict yourself. According to what you said, the flour spills form a pattern, but not a "discernable" one (whatever you mean by that). The discarded roof scraps in the trash barrel form an over-all shape pattern imposed by the trash can.

I would say something like that flour spills form messy patterns on floors and discarded roof scraps form jumbled patterns in trash cans. To say something has no pattern would be to deny that it can be categorized according to appearance.

John Powell

[Carpedm9587]

POWELL:
Thanks for explaining what you mean, but you seem to contradict yourself. According to what you said, the flour spills form a pattern, but not a "discernable" one (whatever you mean by that). The discarded roof scraps in the trash barrel form an over-all shape pattern imposed by the trash can.

I would say something like that flour spills form messy patterns on floors and discarded roof scraps form jumbled patterns in trash cans. To say something has no pattern would be to deny that it can be categorized according to appearance.

John Powell

Then you are not using the word "pattern" to mean "model" or "blueprint" or "design," which was the intent of this particular discussion.

And I think we are now definitely bound for one of your hairsplitting exposes about other possible meanings for a word - so I'm going to leave you to it.

Michel

[John Powell]

Then you are not using the word "pattern" to mean "model" or "blueprint" or "design," which was the intent of this particular discussion.

And I think we are now definitely bound for one of your hairsplitting exposes about other possible meanings for a word - so I'm going to leave you to it.

Michel

POWELL:
But, Carpedm, if you intend to make "pattern" synonymous with "blueprint" and "design" in this discussion then, given your worldview, how do you justify acknowledging nonhuman natural patterns?

John Powell

[NeilUnreal]

What if intelligence itself is an artifact? I mean the very thing itself, not the existence of any particular intelligence.

That's one of the theological and philosophical problems I have with ID: this deep-rooted assumption that God is some kind of "great brain" and the world is the ultimate game of chess.

ID starts with a presumption that we know what God is. It takes one facet of human behaviour where we are prone to self-worship (intelligence), and says "Ah! God must be this little thing (that we already worship) to the nth degree."

It seems to put the cart before the horse.

-Neil