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In Canada freedom of speech and religion is against the law, sometimes.

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  • In Canada freedom of speech and religion is against the law, sometimes.

    Holy Scripture regarding homosexuality in Canada is considered hate speech. Is old news but:

    http://www.crrange.com/wall57.html
    . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

  • #2
    If a Muslim called for the death of all Christians, and published selected verses from the Quran in a newspaper ad that said a variety of nasty things about Christians including saying God commands their death, would that be hate speech in your opinion? Would you want that to be legal?
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Starlight View Post
      If a Muslim called for the death of all Christians, and published selected verses from the Quran in a newspaper ad that said a variety of nasty things about Christians including saying God commands their death, would that be hate speech in your opinion? Would you want that to be legal?
      Where in the Noble Qur'an does it call for the death of all Christians? Let's look at it. [Because it does not.] It does condemn all who do wrong.

      The OT Law under the theocracy of ancient Israel calls for the death of murders, adultery along with homosexuality, dishonoring parents, doing any kind of work on the 7th day, those who practice contacting the "dead." All those practices among some others were considered dangerous worthy of death.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
        If a Muslim called for the death of all Christians, and published selected verses from the Quran in a newspaper ad that said a variety of nasty things about Christians including saying God commands their death, would that be hate speech in your opinion? Would you want that to be legal?
        Hate speech is perfectly legal in Canada. As long as the speech is against Christians, that is. In fact, the only ones who are constantly accused of hate speech are Christians. Everyone else can pretty much say whatever they like.

        We don't need to wait for newspapers to be spouting hate speech against Christians. It happens every day, in every medium. Including Tweb. Jesus said that the world hates Him, so it would hate us also. You fulfill His prophecy every time you open your mouth. Or type on your keyboard, I guess.

        And the Christian who posted the ads was not calling for anyone's death, btw.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Starlight View Post
          If a Muslim called for the death of all Christians, and published selected verses from the Quran in a newspaper ad that said a variety of nasty things about Christians including saying God commands their death, would that be hate speech in your opinion? Would you want that to be legal?
          But to call homosexual activity sin does not compare with calling for death for all homosexuals. Calling for forbidding public homosexuality is not the same as calling for death to homosexuals. And while God did call for the death of homosexuals under the 'law,' the article in the OP did not.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment


          • #6
            There's a long list of Quranic verses promoting violence against non-Muslims here. You didn't answer my question about whether you thought free speech should allow Muslim calls for jihad...

            All Western countries have free speech. You can complain about their politicians, and their political parties, all day everyday without the least fear of reprisal. They understand that free political speech is an essential part of a free and fair democracy (something plenty of Western countries rank better than America at having).

            But the vast majority of Western countries recognize that yes, it's possible, for someone to say something in a way that's going to cause major harm. It's possible to go too far about a person or a group. The willfully stubborn refusal of Americans to acknowledge this often baffles me. Would you be happy with Muslim clerics in California calling for Jihad? Would you be happy if they held a rally at the 9/11 site calling for repeats of it? Would you say "free speech, first amendment, it's all good"? Surely it's just self-evident that there are things people can say that are actively harmful to society and to others, that it's legitimate to stop? Even the US has laws against slander and libel (not quite sure how you guys do the mental gymnastics of pretending those are constitutional). I don't get why anyone would think slander and libel against an entire group of people (eg gay people, Christians etc) is okay and protected as free speech, when slander and libel against a single individual is illegal due to the amount of damage it can do to that individual.

            So, given I think it's possible to go 'to far' in what is said about a particular group of people, the question then becomes, do I think the bible itself goes too far on occasion? I wouldn't want to have been an Amalekite in biblical times. There's some pretty nasty stuff said about them and other people groups and various commands to commit genocide against them. Not exactly warm and fluffy love-thy-neighbor stuff. It would seem to reasonably qualify as hate speech. Likewise the usual interpretation of the bible says some pretty virulently nasty stuff about gay people. It would also seem to qualify as hate speech. I don't think the excuse "no, no, it's not nasty when it's the Bible / Quran saying it!" flies.

            The OT Law under the theocracy of ancient Israel calls for the death of murders, adultery along with homosexuality, dishonoring parents, doing any kind of work on the 7th day, those who practice contacting the "dead."
            This makes me glad I didn't like in ancient Israel under "God's laws". They don't sound very pleasant.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by mossrose View Post
              Hate speech is perfectly legal in Canada. As long as the speech is against Christians, that is. In fact, the only ones who are constantly accused of hate speech are Christians. Everyone else can pretty much say whatever they like.
              It's important to distinguish opinion from facts. Canada has strong hate speech laws against hate speech "against any identifiable group". But free-speech on religious issues is specifically allowed, and there are some exemptions to the hate-speech laws in the name of religious freedom: "if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text" then it's allowed.

              So, yes, people are allowed more freedom to express opinions on religious matters (in the name of religious freedom) than they are, say, about black people or gay people. But there's no distinction between Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists in the law. Speech that comes close to hate-speech is not more-allowed against Christians than it is against other religions.

              Christians are the major religious group in Canada, so if we were to assume that hate-speech usage was proportional among everyone, then most users of hate-speech would likely be Christians, and it hence wouldn't be surprising if the majority of prosecutions were against Christians. I personally wouldn't be at all surprised to find that zealous Christians were disproportionate users of hate-speech in Canada, as strong religious views are more likely to lead to extreme statements than is agnosticism of the masses, and I suspect Muslim immigrants are likely to be more careful in what they say in what they know to be a majority-Christian country than are existing Canadian Christian citizen who probably feel more entitled to their views and feel like it's "their" "Christian" country and hence feel more righteous and confident in strongly expressing their extreme views. So I would be totally unsurprised to hear that upwards of 90% of hate-speech usage in Canada was by Christians.

              And the Christian who posted the ads was not calling for anyone's death, btw.
              The ad apparently cited Lev 20:13. It reads: "'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death." That kind of does call for people's deaths.
              "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
              "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
              "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                The ad apparently cited Lev 20:13. It reads: "'If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death." That kind of does call for people's deaths.
                No! Pointing out that the OT called for death to homosexuals does not equal a call for death totay.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  No! Pointing out that the OT called for death to homosexuals does not equal a call for death totay.
                  In this case it does.

                  Owens v. Saskatchewan (Human Rights Commission), 2002 SKQB 506 (CanLII), par. 12
                  [12] The appellant in his testing believes that homosexuals, by being who they are, are committing a sin for which they should be put to death. Furthermore, the passages from the Bible, which are cited in the bumper sticker and in the advertisement, constitute the appellant's authority for this belief. This belief motivates the message in the bumper sticker and the advertisement. The most favourable interpretation that could be given to the bumper stickers is that because the Bible sanctions the execution of homosexuals, we should be allowed to at least prohibit their activities. However, the Board observed there is a more sinister interpretation.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't think whether the person citing Lev 20:13 is, or isn't, calling for the deaths of gay people today is actually overly relevant. I think getting into that argument is beside the point. Speech can be negative/harmful/demeaning/nasty without specifically wanting someone's death or being specifically motivated by an emotion of hate. While it's called "hate" speech, it doesn't usually require hate to be present to meet the definitions, and many countries laws against it don't actually label it 'hate speech' per se.

                    One definition says it's "any speech, gesture or conduct, writing, or display which is forbidden because it may incite violence or prejudicial action against or by a protected individual or group, or because it disparages or intimidates a protected individual or group." In that definition, it's not the intent of the speaker or writer that's relevant, it's how their speech affects others in their community - whether it intimidates them or incites people to take discriminatory action against them. So the "I don't feel any hate, I'm just quoting the bible, therefore it's not hate-speech" is missing the point. What's relevant is whether a reasonable person hearing the words you're saying could be incited towards hatred by those words, or whether a reasonable member of the group you're attacking is likely to feel intimidated and fearful as a result.

                    Judged by that standard, I would say that most of what the Bible says about gay people is clearly hate speech. It's generally interpreted as saying lots of negative things about gay people and their actions. Over the last 1000 years those passages have pretty much acted as a blank check for people to express very negative and prejudicial viewpoints towards gay people, and justify their views with respect to those verses.
                    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What is and is not hate speech is determined by politicians and supreme courts. What scripture says about sodomy is no more hateful than what it says about any sin.

                      Pointing out those things that are against the instruction of God is not hateful. Until the government and special interest groups get involved and make it so. What is truly hateful and unloving is to let someone go their own way into eternity without telling them about Jesus Christ.


                      Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Would you want that to be legal?
                        Yes.

                        "Fire is catching. If we burn, you burn with us!"
                        "I'm not going anywhere. I'm going to stay here and cause all kinds of trouble."
                        Katniss Everdeen


                        Christ our Passover has been sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                          Pointing out those things that are against the instruction of God is not hateful.
                          Actually it is because God does not give instructions. Priests and evangelists pretend to give instructions on His behalf. You can tell they are fake because they inspire common human pettiness and hatred; religious currency. The Bible is full of instructions purported to be from God but not a single one is.
                          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
                          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
                          “not all there” - you know who you are

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
                            Actually it is because God does not give instructions. Priests and evangelists pretend to give instructions on His behalf. You can tell they are fake because they inspire common human pettiness and hatred; religious currency. The Bible is full of instructions purported to be from God but not a single one is.

                            You are so very wrong, ff. And you are on your way to a lost eternity.


                            Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't think there's a court of law that is going to classify those sayings as hate speech. If they're going to do anything, they might classify a particular speech using such a phrase in a certain way, as hate speech depending on context. I can imagine some circumstances where I agree that a use of it would be hate speech, but in and of itself, it isn't.

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