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Discussion on matters of general mainstream evangelical Christian theology that do not fit within Theology 201. Have some spiritual gifts ceased today? Is the KJV the only viable translation for the church today? In what sense are the books of the bible inspired and what are those books? Church government? Modern day prophets and apostles?

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  • #61
    Bummer. Contact the north American Mission Board for a mission opportunity?
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
      So what is it about church? I probably miss the fellowship. Teaching is always good. Yet these are possible without church.
      About good teaching: is it possible that it's good teaching about irrelevant issues? For example, the Jews were super concerned about eternal life, spending every waking moment scouring the Scriptures to find a way to gain it. Nicodemus even overcame hostile feelings towards Jesus, in his desire to get another opinion, hoping for a definitive answer. Any port in a storm, right? Today we know that eternal life, immortality, is gained by simply believing that Jesus can give it by merely asking Him for it, and then asking Him for it. Very good teaching exists for this topic, with very compelling explanations.

      However, as I inferred, what if the answer is fundamentally wrong? What if eternal life is not immortality, but a way of living, with results that do not rust or perish, unlike all the other tasks we undertake? After all, even the wicked will live forever, but in the smoking section. And the text does say that those who have faith have already passed from death into life. In other words, eternal life is entered now, not when you die, in the sweet by and by.

      And the eternal mode of living must have something to do with the promise made to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his descendants. I know that the going wisdom is that this means we tell people about the Gospel, sometimes in dangerous conditions, and that is the extent of our courage and faithfulness and blessedness, but is that the whole picture? What was the content of Nicodemus questions to Jesus? Did something happen that convinced him that blessings were indeed taking place? Was the entering of eternal life by Jesus responsible for it? Why did Nicodemus believe Jesus was living life in the eternal mode?
      Last edited by footwasher; 07-30-2020, 10:23 AM.

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
        About good teaching: is it possible that it's good teaching about irrelevant issues? For example, the Jews were super concerned about eternal life, spending every waking moment scouring the Scriptures to find a way to gain it. Nicodemus even overcame hostile feelings towards Jesus, in his desire to get another opinion, hoping for a definitive answer. Any port in a storm, right? Today we know that eternal life, immortality, is gained by simply believing that Jesus can give it by merely asking Him for it, and then asking Him for it. Very good teaching exists for this topic, with very compelling explanations.
        I have sat through every combination of good/bad teaching on relevant/irrelevant issues in my life. It's a pretty bad sermon that I don't get something beneficial from.

        Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
        However, as I inferred, what if the answer is fundamentally wrong? What if eternal life is not immortality, but a way of living, with results that do not rust or perish, unlike all the other tasks we undertake? After all, even the wicked will live forever, but in the smoking section. And the text does say that those who have faith have already passed from death into life. In other words, eternal life is entered now, not when you die, in the sweet by and by.

        And the eternal mode of living must have something to do with the promise made to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his descendants. I know that the going wisdom is that this means we tell people about the Gospel, sometimes in dangerous conditions, and that is the extent of our courage and faithfulness and blessedness, but is that the whole picture? What was the content of Nicodemus questions to Jesus? Did something happen that convinced him that blessings were indeed taking place? Was the entering of eternal life by Jesus responsible for it? Why did Nicodemus believe Jesus was living life in the eternal mode?
        I don't know what Nicodemus believed about Jesus living the eternal life. When you read John 3, you see Nicodemus came to Jesus because he believed Jesus was sent by God. The whole passage, John 3:1-21, concerns salvation and not a lifestyle. In fact, in John 17:3 Jesus defines eternal life as "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." So eternal life is a relationship with God and not a life style. I suppose you could extend by saying because I have this relationship, I therefore do these things to have a certain lifestyle. I find you need to keep that connection to God explicit in your life and say so. Sometimes I think too many Christians do the right thing but forget to connect the doing back to God.
        "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

        "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          Bummer. Contact the north American Mission Board for a mission opportunity?
          I cruised by their website and there are some possibilities. Thanks for the suggestion.
          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
            I don't know what Nicodemus believed about Jesus living the eternal life. When you read John 3, you see Nicodemus came to Jesus because he believed Jesus was sent by God.
            John 3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”

            Actually, the Jews were looking for a way to receive what was promised to Abraham, become blessings to the world. In other words, they knew that the world could be blessed by being in union with God. After that, anything was possible. Obviously, only someone who already had God with him would be able to teach the world the Way to have the same union. In the Bible, to know someone is to be in union with him or her, just like Joseph was in union with Mary. That is the eternal type of living mentioned in John 17.

            The whole passage, John 3:1-21, concerns salvation and not a lifestyle.
            By lifestyle, I mean way of serving God. Salvation is not being saved from hell. There is very little concern in the Bible about hell. The main concern was to live a life which did not end with nothing to show. The tree which did not bear fruit was burnt up. Adam was created to be useful to God by making creation useful to Him. Israel knew that Scripture contained the information to unite her with God the way Adam had been united with God. Each sect had a set of guidelines to follow, halakhah, works of the law, which if followed perfectly would result in this union. Parchment discovered in the Essene sect in Qumran listed out the requirements they were trying to perfect. Jesus told the Jews that the Scriptures pointed to Him: He was the answer. They needed to eat His flesh, needed to do what He did, to be in union with God.

            John 17:20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.

            In fact, in John 17:3 Jesus defines eternal life as "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." So eternal life is a relationship with God and not a life style. I suppose you could extend by saying because I have this relationship, I therefore do these things to have a certain lifestyle. I find you need to keep that connection to God explicit in your life and say so. Sometimes I think too many Christians do the right thing but forget to connect the doing back to God.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
              I have sat through every combination of good/bad teaching on relevant/irrelevant issues in my life. It's a pretty bad sermon that I don't get something beneficial from.



              I don't know what Nicodemus believed about Jesus living the eternal life. When you read John 3, you see Nicodemus came to Jesus because he believed Jesus was sent by God. The whole passage, John 3:1-21, concerns salvation and not a lifestyle. In fact, in John 17:3 Jesus defines eternal life as "Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." So eternal life is a relationship with God and not a life style. I suppose you could extend by saying because I have this relationship, I therefore do these things to have a certain lifestyle. I find you need to keep that connection to God explicit in your life and say so. Sometimes I think too many Christians do the right thing but forget to connect the doing back to God.
              Salvation does indeed infer a lifestyle. As a proof for oneself, if you will.

              Not of stoic "not sinning" according to this world, but of one filled with love, joy, peace, patience, and I think you know the rest. In a very real way, we should all examine our lives regarding simply what we are, to just "be." Do we like what we see? Did God indeed build in me what I see Christ is? Do we have an infectious joy and confidence amongst the tragedy of life? Christ did, and I want Him to wrought that in me more and more.

              You are correct though, it is one thing to do the right thing from compulsion, verses doing the right thing because it is now in your nature. The nature the Spirit is flaming within us, letting the new man eclipse the old man.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                Salvation does indeed infer a lifestyle. As a proof for oneself, if you will.

                Not of stoic "not sinning" according to this world, but of one filled with love, joy, peace, patience, and I think you know the rest. In a very real way, we should all examine our lives regarding simply what we are, to just "be." Do we like what we see? Did God indeed build in me what I see Christ is? Do we have an infectious joy and confidence amongst the tragedy of life? Christ did, and I want Him to wrought that in me more and more.

                You are correct though, it is one thing to do the right thing from compulsion, verses doing the right thing because it is now in your nature. The nature the Spirit is flaming within us, letting the new man eclipse the old man.
                Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                Salvation does indeed infer a lifestyle. As a proof for oneself, if you will.

                Not of stoic "not sinning" according to this world, but of one filled with love, joy, peace, patience, and I think you know the rest. In a very real way, we should all examine our lives regarding simply what we are, to just "be." Do we like what we see? Did God indeed build in me what I see Christ is? Do we have an infectious joy and confidence amongst the tragedy of life? Christ did, and I want Him to wrought that in me more and more.

                You are correct though, it is one thing to do the right thing from compulsion, verses doing the right thing because it is now in your nature. The nature the Spirit is flaming within us, letting the new man eclipse the old man.
                Again, the Kingdom of God, eternal life type of living, is not the product of the transformative work of the Holy Spirit, but of eating the flesh of Christ, doing what He did, picking up the cross everyday. It is how you are rescued back from spiritual exile, separation from God. Israel knew that even thogh she was back in Jerusalem, which was an important condition, God sending lions to punish inhabitants who did not follow its requirements, Torah was teaching about a different
                return from exile to home, inhabitation of residency, one which was yet to be entered. Jesus taught that He was the real Jerusalem from above, the real Rest, entered by eating of His flesh...

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                  Again, the Kingdom of God, eternal life type of living, is not the product of the transformative work of the Holy Spirit, but of eating the flesh of Christ, doing what He did, picking up the cross everyday. It is how you are rescued back from spiritual exile, separation from God. Israel knew that even thogh she was back in Jerusalem, which was an important condition, God sending lions to punish inhabitants who did not follow its requirements, Torah was teaching about a different
                  return from exile to home, inhabitation of residency, one which was yet to be entered. Jesus taught that He was the real Jerusalem from above, the real Rest, entered by eating of His flesh...
                  I will rest in the transformative power of the Spirit, resting from my own labors. It's a beautiful thing.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Maranatha View Post
                    I will rest in the transformative power of the Spirit, resting from my own labors. It's a beautiful thing.
                    How do we know that the Spirit is the source, the motive power behind our good works? Sproul highlights the dilemma:

                    Quote
                    I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, "Well, here I am. I can't point to my obedience. There's nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy." Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, "Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life." In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!
                    https://faithalone.org/journal/1997ii/Wilkin.html

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Can y'all take this to a new thread please? It's getting too debatey for a light hearted thread about being homesick for heaven and feeling like one is an alien.
                      If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                        Can y'all take this to a new thread please? It's getting too debatey for a light hearted thread about being homesick for heaven and feeling like one is an alien.
                        Oops! We forgot that you were posting about how uncomfortable you were in an environment where people felt nothing about walking out from a store with unpaid stuff hidden on their persons.

                        We shouldn't have been discussing how the heroes of faith had been given glimpses of how future believers would live lives blessing the world, turning people to submit to God, by being included in the new humanity in Christ, solving the problem that Camus called living the absurd life, that being in the old Adam resulted in.

                        Hebrews 11:13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                          Probably should have put that in past tense. Since June, we've been able to meet for worship, but we have to wear masks and no hugging or shaking hands! So, still no fellowship.
                          How are your church services doing? I'd guess the restrictions haven't been lifted yet.

                          It's been a few more weeks of no services for me. Some of the churches are reopening for services. I've heard attendance is sparse.
                          "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                          "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Chiefsinner View Post
                            How do we know that the Spirit is the source, the motive power behind our good works? Sproul highlights the dilemma:

                            Quote
                            I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, "Well, here I am. I can't point to my obedience. There's nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy." Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, "Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life." In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!
                            https://faithalone.org/journal/1997ii/Wilkin.html
                            We are indeed the light and sapt 9f the Earth! And that still makes me reoate to fictional alien superheroes. Because we aren't of this world, but we should still be a good example and help others.
                            If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
                              How are your church services doing? I'd guess the restrictions haven't been lifted yet.

                              It's been a few more weeks of no services for me. Some of the churches are reopening for services. I've heard attendance is sparse.
                              Good. We're in Exodus right now. Every time the Israelites promise to obey God, I internally wince since I know the golden calf incident happened not long after.
                              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                                We are indeed the light and sapt 9f the Earth! And that still makes me reoate to fictional alien superheroes. Because we aren't of this world, but we should still be a good example and help others.
                                Someone told Sproul that he could know he was saved by the appearance of the working of the Holy Spirit in his life, the fact that he was doing good works. However, he admits that there was no real evidence that the Holy Spirit was behind the good works. It was quite possible, he noted, that he was forcing himself to do good deeds just to escape Hell.

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