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This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

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The holiness of God

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  • The holiness of God

    Isaiah had a vision in which he saw the Seraphim praising God for his holiness.
    In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
    “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts;
    the whole earth is full of his glory!”
    Isaiah 6:1-3 ESV

    John later saw the same thing.
    And around the throne, on each side of the throne, are four living creatures, full of eyes in front and behind: the first living creature like a lion, the second living creature like an ox, the third living creature with the face of a man, and the fourth living creature like an eagle in flight. And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all around and within, and day and night they never cease to say,
    “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
    who was and is and is to come!”
    Revelation 4:6-8 ESV

    The seraphim were praising God’s holiness in 740 BC when Isaiah had his vision. They were doing it when John was taken to Heaven in about AD 90. As far as we know they are doing the same thing today. This suggests that holiness is God’s most important attribute.

    Today we hear more about God’s love than about his holiness. Many ask, “If God loves us why doesn’t he just forgive everyone’s sins? Why do we have to put our faith in Christ?” If we only consider God’s love those are legitimate questions. We need to remember that God can’t express love in a way that contradicts his holiness. All sin must be paid for; either the sinner must be punished or the sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice.
    Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
    Hebrews 9:22 ESV

    The only blood that atones for human sin is that of Jesus Christ. His resurrection proves that God has accepted his sacrifice. Whoever puts his faith in Christ is made holy and fit to enter the presence of God; anyone who fails to do this must bear the punishment he deserves.

    The holiness of God explains why Hell must be eternal. Anyone who sins against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment.

    When Isaiah saw God his first reaction was a consciousness of his own sinfulness.
    And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts!”
    Isaiah 6:5 ESV

    Most people think they live good lives. They are generally aware of areas where they don’t fully measure up to what they know is right, but they don’t think their failures are of vital importance. That is because we are in a state of spiritual darkness where we don’t see things as God sees them. The light of God’s holiness enables us to see ourselves as we really are.

    If we want to know God we need to begin by understanding his holiness. Until we see him as holy our understanding of his actions will be flawed.
    The brutal, soul-shaking truth is that we are so earthly minded we are of no heavenly use.
    Leonard Ravenhill

    https://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/

  • #2
    Partly due to the way we are designed and the fact this is not heaven; no one can keep from sinning, so why should God get so angry at us for sinning?

    If God had not put the tree of knowledge in the Garden would man have not sinned without a way to sin? So is God partly to blame?

    Do people go to hell because they sinned in the past (since all mature adults have sinned) or do mature adults go to hell because they refused to accept God’s forgiveness?

    Comment


    • #3
      bling, just trust that God has a good purpose for what is incomprehensible to those of us who are so limited. That is really my answer to every such question, "Just trust Him."
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by theophilus View Post
        The holiness of God explains why Hell must be eternal. Anyone who sins against an infinitely holy God deserves eternal punishment.
        Does Scripture teach that God is holy? Yes. Does Scripture teach a doctrine of eschatological punishment? Yes. It is not immediately apparent, however, how or why it necessarily follows that the holiness of God requires him to immortalise unrepentant human beings in order to torture them endlessly in ‘hell’ as their punishment. I believe your assertion to be a non sequitur. Whilst you may respond that I am calling into question what the Bible clearly teaches, in anticipation of such a response I will simply state that I do not believe that Scripture unambiguously teaches the doctrine of endless torture as the fate of the unrighteous.
        Last edited by The Remonstrant; 07-07-2016, 06:18 AM.
        For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

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        • #5
          Originally posted by hoghead
          Edited by a Moderator
          I did not suggest that every complex question should be written off. I suggested that when we do not have an answer the thing is to trust God.

          Originally posted by hoghead
          Edited by a Moderator
          I disagree on both of these points. The few paradoxes in scripture are illustrations of our complete inability to comprehend God beyond what is revealed. And the supposed contradictions in the Bible do not show disagreement between human authors.
          Last edited by Bill the Cat; 07-20-2016, 08:20 PM.
          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

          Comment

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