Are Those Invisible Things of God Real for OEC

[jordanriver]

Paul writes "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:20 )

However, if the present world that we clearly see is exclusively the product of natural means, what did God do? What did God have to with it if natural processes did all the work.

How do the heavens declare the glory of God. That is, those heavens that we can see with our eyes , the 'shamayim' . ( Psalm 19:1 )

If exclusively natural processes explain the existance of the visible heavens over billions of years, who needs God? Not much glory there if He didn't have anymore to do with the present condition of the heavens than Stephen Hawking.

Does the firmament/ raqiya` (atmosphere?) show God's handiwork, or is the atmosphere (or whatever the firmament is supposed to be) the end result of natural geological processes. Who needs God if you can get a good decent working water-holding firmament without Him?

JR

[KBertsche]

Paul writes "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:20 )

However, if the present world that we clearly see is exclusively the product of natural means, what did God do? What did God have to with it if natural processes did all the work.

How do the heavens declare the glory of God. That is, those heavens that we can see with our eyes , the 'shamayim' . ( Psalm 19:1 )

If exclusively natural processes explain the existance of the visible heavens over billions of years, who needs God? Not much glory there if He didn't have anymore to do with the present condition of the heavens than Stephen Hawking.

Does the firmament/ raqiya` (atmosphere?) show God's handiwork, or is the atmosphere (or whatever the firmament is supposed to be) the end result of natural geological processes. Who needs God if you can get a good decent working water-holding firmament without Him?

JR

Good questions. The ideas that "natural processes did all the work" or that "you can get a good decent working water-holding firmament without Him" are not Christian, and not scientific. These are metaphysical, philosophical ideas which stem from a naturalistic worldview, not from science. These concepts are shared by the heresy of Deism and by many YEC'ers (who show evidence of being "closet Deists".)

The Christian worldview (held by OEC'ers) is that natural processes do nothing. They merely describe what God does. They have no power in themselves. The entire universe is contingent upon God's upholding it second-by-second. Thus, we don't need to look for "gaps" in scientific knowledge to find evidence of God. We can see Him in the science which we understand. Here are a couple of quotes:

Isaac Newton

This most beautiful system of sun, planets, and comets could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent and powerful Being.

© source where applicable

D.M. MacKay, The Clockwork Image (Downers Grove: IVP, 1974), p.31

Scientific laws do not prescribe what must happen; they describe what has happened. The earth does not go round the sun because Newton's (or Einstein's) law makes it, or tells it to. The earth goes its own way, and the scientific laws are our generalized way of describing how it goes. All that they prescribe are our expectations.

© source where applicable

Kirk

[oxmixmudd]

Paul writes "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" ( Romans 1:20 )

However, if the present world that we clearly see is exclusively the product of natural means, what did God do? What did God have to with it if natural processes did all the work.

How do the heavens declare the glory of God. That is, those heavens that we can see with our eyes , the 'shamayim' . ( Psalm 19:1 )

If exclusively natural processes explain the existance of the visible heavens over billions of years, who needs God? Not much glory there if He didn't have anymore to do with the present condition of the heavens than Stephen Hawking.

Does the firmament/ raqiya` (atmosphere?) show God's handiwork, or is the atmosphere (or whatever the firmament is supposed to be) the end result of natural geological processes. Who needs God if you can get a good decent working water-holding firmament without Him?

JR

Kirk has already answered this quite well - but I will add that in colossians we are told that in Him all things are held together by His power, and Jesus tells us the hairs on our head are numbered, and not even a sparrow falls to the ground that the Father does not notice. Basically, the view that there is anything going on in this universe that does not depend fully on at the very least the sustaining power of God and of His will is contrary to the teachings of scripture.


Jim