Dealing with death as an Atheist

[lao tzu]

This thread is for non-theists only. If you believe in a god, post your comments elsewhere, please. Yes, this thread is also about Laura, aka Storico.

Elsewhere on this site, theists are consoling themselves with thoughts that Laura has gone on to a reward, that they will someday meet again, that this parting is not forever. But we know that's not the case. She is dead and that's the end of the story. For a time, memory of her will remain, but this too will pass.

While she was alive, after I'd learned of her illness, it seemed better to me not to challenge her on her beliefs. I wonder whether others here felt the same. There are other examples we could imagine. A woman has been crushed in a car wreck. Her children are already dead, though she does not know it. She will pass soon. Should you tell her? I say no.

There are many occasions, I believe, when honesty is unethical, and this is a notable example. Do we value truth for its own sake, or do we value it because of its consequences? For me, it is the latter. Truth is valuable to me only so far as it is useful. Knowing there are no gods is valuable to me because it spurs me to seek justice in the here and now, to find the solutions no god will ever provide. These are positive consequences.

For Laura, the consequences of truth were only negative, as far as I can see. But there are others who will miss the lesson of her death, supported by their religious beliefs in an afterlife. They are investing in a lie. The consequences on that investment will be reaped by the living. Some, and arguably most, of those consequences are negative. But truth, in this case, comes at a cost, paid in the emotional benefit to our fellow humans.

How do we, as atheists, balance that emotional cost against the emotional and physical benefits of a godless worldview? This is my question for atheists.

As ever, Jesse

[SteveF]

Very good questions Jesse, but I'm going to give it a few days to reply. I don't particularly feel like I can think about this and answer right now.

[lao tzu]

Very good questions Jesse, but I'm going to give it a few days to reply. I don't particularly feel like I can think about this and answer right now.

I share your feelings. It was quite the internal debate about whether these thoughts should be posted so soon. But in the end it seemed to me that even if we cannot answer these questions now, now is the best time to consider them.

I considered posting this thread elsewhere, in a more secular environment where I know many TWeb atheists also post. (Christina M is a moderator there. I sent her a PM last night, and followed up this morning.) But again, it seemed more useful to have those responding forced to consider the consequences to our theist friends looking on.

As ever, Jesse

[SteveF]

Oh yes I understand and I hope my post didn't come across as a sly bit of criticism. I just personally don't feel able to discuss these matters right at the moment.

[$cirisme]

I'm going to totally abuse my position to post this directly here where it must be dealt with, and where I hope it will speak to you.

Taoist, I understand your concerns, and I appreciate your sincerity for dealing with these delicate issues.

But I will ask, not as an moderator, but as a friend, and just generally decent human being, that this discussion be put off for some other time.

This is obviously an emotional time for a lot of people, and I ask that you respect that by not immediately using the death of a dear friend as a platform to launch a debate on "atheistic ethics".

Yes, this is a discussion that should certainly happen, but I highly question the wisdom of doing so at a time where the only possible outcome is alienation and damaged friendships.

Please, taoist, I beg you to have respect and to not latch on to such an emotional event as a way to promote your "atheistic ethics". I am personally hurt at your lack of wisdom and respect in posting this, and I hope you will rectify that.

Thanks for listening, at least.

[lao tzu]

This site is a place for the difficult questions in life, the ones that cannot be answered by plugging numbers into equations; the questions posed here are among the most difficult, especially for us atheists.

Perhaps no other aspect of life with theists presents more of a challenge than dealing with death. For all of us, theist and atheist alike, it remains to find a way to respect the feelings of those whose beliefs differ from our own, even when we do not respect those beliefs.

This "death" thread is intended as a place where we atheists can discover for ourselves a way to express that respect while remaining true to ourselves. Those who do not feel they can accomplish this objective are asked not to post.

As ever, Jesse

[Jimmy Higgins]

• Edited by a Moderator • Atheists are always told how we choose atheism for it's ease of living, how we choose it so as to avoid the "consequences" of being sinful. Well that is a bunch of horse plop and death is a very good example of it.

What does an atheist tell his grandmother when she asks "why god doesn't want her" after she had a few bad medical problems but has managed to survive through them. What does an atheist say to grieving family members over the loss of a loved one. Theists have no appreciation for the difficulties we endure during such types of grief, because not only are we grieving along side them, we have to hold their own personal beliefs above our own so as not to upset them even more.

As atheists we have more than just the burden of grief. We have to keep to ourselves, how we truly feel about the situation, nod along with what we believe is placebo nonsense. We don't think they are in a better place, we don't feel that we are better off, we don't think praying will help us. And this additional burden is typically shared alone. We can't talk of our feelings as theists so readily can. It typically takes a web board in order for atheists to be able to grieve with those that understand their worldview and the conflicts that it creates in these situations.

Taoist brings up a critical reality, one that is very painful for us... and typically can show the atheist rising to occasions by thinking of others more than themselves.

• Edited by a Moderator • It's hard to explain how it feels to grieve alone. I feel unbelievably lucky to have met a woman that shares my feelings, so as the recent events with my grandmother, I can share my feelings with her. Theists haven't the slightest clue what it is to grieve alone like this. It is hard, it is trying, it is frustrating.

There are many occasions, I believe, when honesty is unethical, and this is a notable example. Do we value truth for its own sake, or do we value it because of its consequences?

I've come a while in this question. I've learned in many years of atheism that truth isn't as important sometimes, that the placebo is more important. Sometimes the placebo, the comfort it can give, is much more important, especially to those that are weak. Atheistic apologetics has no place with mourning and those in pain. People need their faith to handle the loss or grievance. I don't hold that against them, nor could I. There is the truth and then there is what must be said.

[flipper]

It's a vital topic of discussion. Nevertheless, I think I'm going to give it a couple of weeks.

[lao tzu]

I agree with that sentiment, flipper. A lot of the reason I opened this thread so early was as a promise to myself to deal with an extremely difficult problem for atheists. At present, I'm in correspondence with one of the staff members here about how we should handle this thread. I've requested a change in the thread title, but sometimes the moderation wheels turn slowly.

This theme of this thread, as I see it now, is "Dealing with death as an atheist."

This is intended as a discussion thread rather than a debate thread. I don't have answers, but I hope to be able to share my thoughts and listen to those of other in like circumstances. The location of this thread, here on a christian site, adds a certain poignancy to the issue as we consider the larger society around us.

TWeb will be closed (tomorrow I think) out of respect for our loss. I don't intend to respond again here, in public, until then. Still, this is an issue I very much wish to discuss with you all.

As ever, Jesse

[nickcopernicus]

....
How do we, as atheists, balance that emotional cost against the emotional and physical benefits of a godless worldview? This is my question for atheists.

As ever, Jesse

Nick:

That's a profound question, t. I'll answer it based on my thankfully limited (so far) experience of death among those who I've held close, the most recent example being the woman who raised me, my grandmother, died a little more than a month ago.

As far as I can tell, among my nuclear family, I am the only atheist, so naturally my family members feel confident that they will "meet her again someday." I, on the other hand, hold no such convictions. I harbor no beliefs that I will ever meet that personality again. Instead of telling myself I'll meet her (my grandmother or Laura) again, I just..."deal with it." The rational part of me accepts that life will sometimes suck...., and the emotional part of my mind rants about how "unfair" it is that someone could only live a few decades, then have it end. Never in all eternity to ever exist again. In thousands of years, perhaps no one alive will know how wonderful a person Laura was. [nihilistic rant] And in billions of years, except for a few space probes and thousands (perhaps 10s of thousands?) o' years of radio transmissions being emmited into deep space will be the only indcations that anyone, or life itself existed on this insignificant celestial body that is (or was) part of a solar system on a spiral arm of a back-water galaxy that was somewhere inside of a 26-billion light year accross universe [/nihilistic rant]....But such is life, and so we must deal with it and treasure the blink in the cosmos that is our lives.

Cheers,

Nick

[Zeluvia]

Try to treat everyone as though both you and they will die today.

The worst part of death for the living, after the initial grief of loss is over, is really the recriminations, the guilt, and the regrets. I carry quite a large bag of those, so I try to avoid them. When I knew she was sick, I tried to do what little I could, by posting something uplifting. Her posts show she was coming to terms with her death.

I have private little rituals of remembrance too. Usually on the birthdays, and on the death days.

But I stayed out of posting in the grief threads, because philosophically, I felt I didn't belong there. I am sad though, and I do think about her and her life. It's really the only honor we can give.

As for ethical telling of untruths, I completely agree with that. There are countless situations in life where saying nothing at all is the best course of action, and many where a lie or agreeing to lie spares pain and suffering.