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Jesus was not the messiah

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Undoubtedly, but it answers your objection.
    Not sure what you are referring to. I never made that objection. I believe the OP did. I merely pointed out a simple fact that a lot of people were descended from David in the first century. The ראש הגלות (Exilarch) comes to mind.



    Hang around a while - you'll see worse arguments.
    I believe you. I have alread seen some fantastic ones.
    אברהם אבן עזרא

    Avraham Ibn Ezra

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
      The problem is that the physical kingdom מלכות didn't last. The throne of the kingdom כסא מלכות was the promise forever. See 2 Samuel 7:13 where the Hebrew literally says וכננתי את כסא ממלכתו עד עולם " I shall establish the throne of his kingdom forever and ever." Only the physical realm was conditional and did not last. The reference to the Throne of the kingdom is a euphemism in Hebrew for rulership in Hebrew poetics.
      How do you understand the relationship between the eternal throne of the kingdom of the House of David and the Messiah with respect to the Kingdom of God?

      תנה־לנו מלך לשפטנו ויתפלל שמואל אל־יהוה׃ ויאמר יהוה אל־שמואל שמע בקול העם לכל אשר־יאמרו אליך כי לא אתך מאסו כי־אתי מאסו ממלך עליהם׃
      βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
      ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

      אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by robrecht View Post
        How do you understand the relationship between the eternal throne of the kingdom of the House of David and the Messiah with respect to the Kingdom of God?

        תנה־לנו מלך לשפטנו ויתפלל שמואל אל־יהוה׃ ויאמר יהוה אל־שמואל שמע בקול העם לכל אשר־יאמרו אליך כי לא אתך מאסו כי־אתי מאסו ממלך עליהם׃
        I really don't want to just throw anything out there without researching it first. I will have to look at some sources and give you an informed response. To be honest I rarely think about it, I just focus on Torah. This is my beginning into debate and discussion about many of these topics.
        אברהם אבן עזרא

        Avraham Ibn Ezra

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Avraham Ibn Ezra View Post
          I really don't want to just throw anything out there without researching it first. I will have to look at some sources and give you an informed response. To be honest I rarely think about it, I just focus on Torah. This is my beginning into debate and discussion about many of these topics.
          No hurry. It doesn't need to be a debate, either, just a friendly conversation.
          βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
          ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

          אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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          • #35
            Originally posted by robrecht View Post
            just a friendly conversation
            http://myemail.constantcontact.com/A...id=Tt9IS0SHLbY

            Maimonides (Mishneh Torah, Laws of Kings, chapter 11) writes that Jesus of Nazareth imagined that he was the messiah. He tried to actualize this, but failed. Instead of redeeming Israel and the entire world, he caused Israel to be slain by the sword, their remnant to be scattered and humiliated, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to be deceived and serve a god other than G-d.

            Which is contrary the Christian (preterist) claim that Jerusalem was destroyed because of Israel not accepting Jesus as King and Messiah.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
              http://myemail.constantcontact.com/A...id=Tt9IS0SHLbY

              Which is contrary the Christian (preterist) claim that Jerusalem was destroyed because of Israel not accepting Jesus as King and Messiah.
              Not sure of the relevance. Are you imagining that I am trying to argue for a preterist perspective?
              βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
              ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

              אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

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              • #37
                Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                Not sure of the relevance. Are you imagining that I am trying to argue for a preterist perspective?
                It is a discussion with "the knife on the throat".

                After 1 John 2:22, Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                  It is a discussion with "the knife on the throat".

                  After 1 John 2:22, Who is the liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ?
                  Again, relevance? Are you imagining that I am trying to argue for a preterist perspective? That I have a knife at someone's throat?
                  βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                  ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                  אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                    Again, relevance? Are you imagining that I am trying to argue for a preterist perspective? That I have a knife at someone's throat?
                    I just want to argue that it is never "a friendly conversation"

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                      I just want to argue that it is never "a friendly conversation"
                      And rejecting God is a good thing in the Jewish perspective? Seems to me that knife cuts both ways - if you're insisting on being overbearing about it.
                      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                        I just want to argue that it is never "a friendly conversation"
                        Oh, I see, but that is not true at all. See the patience of Joshua ben Levi with the Christians and even the Jewish Christians of his time in the third century CE. There is no reason why Christians cannot emulate the same patience and understanding.
                        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Again, relevance? Are you imagining that I am trying to argue for a preterist perspective? That I have a knife at someone's throat?
                          Originally posted by robrecht View Post
                          Oh, I see, but that is not true at all. See the patience of Joshua ben Levi with the Christians and even the Jewish Christians of his time in the third century CE. There is no reason why Christians cannot emulate the same patience and understanding.

                          Me f.e. am not allowed to post in Christianity 201.

                          In general Jews are considered to have "missed the boat" -- they'll have to admit that they are wrong and Chritians are right, and have themselves baptized.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                            Me f.e. am not allowed to post in Christianity 201.
                            Not relevant. You are free to have friendly conversations elsewhere on the site.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
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                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

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                            • #44
                              This is World Religions - you can post here.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Geert van den Bos View Post
                                Me f.e. am not allowed to post in Christianity 201.

                                In general Jews are considered to have "missed the boat" -- they'll have to admit that they are wrong and Chritians are right, and have themselves baptized.
                                What does "Me f.e." mean?
                                βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
                                ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

                                אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

                                Comment

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