Bernie, the "No Jobs" President

[demi-conservative]

[Raphael]

Most of the McDonald's here in NZ have installed the self service kiosks over the last year or so.

[Starlight]

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here, it's just that the technology for the self-service screens has gotten cheaper over time.

The issue of massive job loss from improving technology is a big issue worldwide: The Bank of England estimates 50% of all jobs could be lost to machines in the next 20 years. That's going to be a huge social and economic problem we all have to plan for, and it's not something that's going to go away if the minimum wage is $4 an hour vs $15 an hour.

[demi-conservative]

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here, it's just that the technology for the self-service screens has gotten cheaper over time.

The issue of massive job loss from improving technology is a big issue worldwide: The Bank of England estimates 50% of all jobs could be lost to machines in the next 20 years. That's going to be a huge social and economic problem we all have to plan for, and it's not something that's going to go away if the minimum wage is $4 an hour vs $15 an hour.

Libs: raising minimum wage very very very important!!!!

Wage raised. Big fail.

Conservatives: Told you so

Libs: Ignore that!!! We got bigger problem here no matter what minimum wage is!!

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here....and it's not something that's going to go away if the minimum wage is $4 an hour vs $15 an hour.

Of course tech is cheaper over time!!! If minimum wage lower then machine cost then machine no be implemented. In your kooky country down under minimum wage is too high already so no need for hike, machine take over anyway.

[jordanriver]

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here, it's just that the technology for the self-service screens has gotten cheaper over time.

.

like water off a duck's back.
Conservatism filters certain words or phrases from penetrating the eyes or ears to reach the brain.

[Cow Poke]

Me and Sparko called this!

[Cow Poke]

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here, it's just that the technology for the self-service screens has gotten cheaper over time.

McDonalds tried them out in our area about 10 years ago - customers didn't like them, so they disappeared. Now there's a better reason to bring them back.

The issue of massive job loss from improving technology is a big issue worldwide: The Bank of England estimates 50% of all jobs could be lost to machines in the next 20 years. That's going to be a huge social and economic problem we all have to plan for, and it's not something that's going to go away if the minimum wage is $4 an hour vs $15 an hour.

No, it's not going to go away, it's going to get accelerated by the $15/hr push.

[KingsGambit]

For years, Wendy's has consistently messed up my order at least 50% of the time. I'm not even exaggerating. I always order a burger without cheese, and usually it comes with cheese. Maybe a kiosk could actually get it right.

(But for this specific reason, I rarely go to Wendy's anymore.)

[demi-conservative]

like water off a duck's back.
Conservatism filters certain words or phrases from penetrating the eyes or ears to reach the brain.

Okay I repeat myself with small words.

This happens when minimum wage too high and machine good and cheap. Wage in sheepland too high already so no need hike for machine to take over.

[jordanriver]

Okay I repeat myself with small words.

This happens when minimum wage too high and machine good and cheap. Wage in sheepland too high already so no need hike for machine to take over.

sir, they're going to install kiosks whether the minimum wage is raised or not,

...BECAUSE, making 644 times more than the average wage of McDonalds workers is still not enough for greedy Capitalist Profiteers.

[demi-conservative]

sir, they're going to install kiosks whether the minimum wage is raised or not

Okay I repeat myself:

Libs: raising minimum wage very very very important!!!!

Wage raised. Big fail.

Conservatives: Told you so

Libs: Ignore that! We got bigger problem here no matter what minimum wage is!! Whether raise or not doesn't matter much!!!

--------

And no, if minimum wage low enough then not likely to use machine - customers still like humans.

If you libs really really cared for fast food workers minimum wage must go down! And not up. Better less money than no money.

[Joel]

Self-service kiosks are being rolled out by all the big chains. The McDonalds a block from my house got self-serve kiosks earlier this year. There's been no minimum wage hike here, it's just that the technology for the self-service screens has gotten cheaper over time.

The issue of massive job loss from improving technology is a big issue worldwide: The Bank of England estimates 50% of all jobs could be lost to machines in the next 20 years. That's going to be a huge social and economic problem we all have to plan for, and it's not something that's going to go away if the minimum wage is $4 an hour vs $15 an hour.

If that is a problem, then raising the minimum wage will only make it worse (will make humans even less competitive with the machines). It would be like horse-and-buggy sellers worrying about the competition from this new horseless carriage, and so the horse-and-buggy sellers decide to compete by charging even higher prices than before!


But there is no problem from improving technology. Luddites have worried about that every step of the way as technology has improved rapidly over the past 200 years or so. They have always incorrectly predicted that it will cause a huge social and economic problem in just a few years. All kinds of jobs have been eliminated over the past 200 years by improving technology. Yet it always ends up creating even more kinds of opportunities than it eliminates, and ends up increasing, rather than decreasing, the demand for labor, because it tends toward increasing the productivity of labor.

[Sparko]

Me and Sparko called this!

I even linked to that hamburger making robot. It won't be long till the only people working at McDonalds will be the one's repairing the robots and making sure the food is stocked, at least until they get self-driving trucks and robot fork-lifts.

[Starlight]

The important principle to me is this: People have to be earning enough to live on.

It's that simple. If you disagree with that, I think you're an immoral person.

So, we have to make sure the rules of our economy are set up in such a way that people can earn enough to live on. So, what does it mean in practice? Firstly it means anyone working hard - working a 40+ hour week - should be earning enough to live on. Therefore we need to ensure that the wages they are getting paid are enough to live on, and therefore we need to ensure there's a high enough minimum wage (~$15 hour, or something vaguely similar). Secondly, it means that anyone who no longer has a job over the next 20 years, due to technology rapidly replacing jobs and putting more and more people out of work, receives sufficient support to live their lives. It won't be their fault a machine took their job. It won't be their fault there's no more jobs available for them to apply for.

[Starlight]

But there is no problem from improving technology. Luddites have worried about that every step of the way as technology has improved rapidly over the past 200 years or so. They have always incorrectly predicted that it will cause a huge social and economic problem in just a few years. All kinds of jobs have been eliminated over the past 200 years by improving technology. Yet it always ends up creating even more kinds of opportunities than it eliminates, and ends up increasing, rather than decreasing, the demand for labor, because it tends toward increasing the productivity of labor.

In the past, gradual technology improvements eliminated the jobs of small amounts (~1%) of the total workforce in any given decade. Yes, there were people who were greatly concerned about this when it happened, and yes their concerns turned out to be unfounded in their historical periods.

However, there are two big differences that our generation faces:
1. The percentage of the workforce potentially made redundant in a short time is orders of magnitude higher than any time previously in history. Serious people are estimating robotics could eliminate 50% of jobs in a 20 year period. I've even seen estimates as high as 80%. That sort of amount is outside the range of historical datapoints. While we know that society can absorb a 1% shock to the system and carry on fine, we don't know what will happen if hit with a 50% or even 80% shock.

2. It's possible we're getting close to saturated demand for goods in the Western world, and thus for labor. eg I don't need or want two tables in my kitchen or two beds in my bedroom or two TVs in my lounge, I only want one of each. Once a person has enough of the stuff they want, they stop buying more. In the past, people being made redundant could transfer to other professions because there was always something people wanted, some additional product they wanted more of. However, a lot of people in the Western world are beginning to hit the point where they've got everything they want. So moving redundant people to new professions is going to become problematic because there's going to be increasingly less demand for further labor.

Now, it's possible that the peak-demand of (2) is centuries away still (though I doubt it, because I already know a few people who are content with the level of goods they have). But at some point we will hit it.