Chuck Missler on the end Times

[Raphael]

Hi again,

I have another question for the eschatology boffins here; mostly the preterists, but no objection to others giving input. (Please remember, I'm not really up to speed on detailed in-depth eschatological discussions, it is an area I only have a generalised interest in; so use smaller words)

When I get up in the mornings and am getting ready for work, the 5:30am show on New Zealand's Rhema is Chuck Missler's 66/40. (NZ's Rhema is the big Christian radio station in NZ).

Now the series they've been playing is Dr. Missler's Learn the Bible in 24 Hours. And the last couple of shows have been his section on eschatology.

Dr. Missler is a futurist and pre-trib etc. He has co-authored a book with Hal Lindsey (so that should explain his position pretty well).

Now in his talk he goes into 2 Thessalonians 2. He claims that the "falling away" (in the KJV...my ESV phrases it as rebellion. GR=apostasia) should be translated to mean the Rapture. He says that this shows clearly that the rapture happens, and only then will the Anti Christ will be revealed.

He further points out (and this bit I'm happy with) that Paul comments in verse 5 that he told them these things when he was with them, indicating that Paul dealt with eschatological issues amongst Christians from when they were still very recent converts.

Dr Missler also says that Paul's comments in verses 1-3a indicate that there were forgeries around purportedly from Paul saying that the Rapture had happened (From what I gather Dr. Missler equates Day of the Lord to be the Rapture event). He says that Paul is saying that we mustn't be decieved into thinking that these things have already happened (he claims it applies to us as well) but that only when the Rapture happens will it begin.

What is the general opinion of Dr. Missler, and what do you think of his view on 2 Thessalonians 2?

(There is more, but this is the section that for some reason bugged me. I'll have to listen to the session again in order to get the other points again).

God Bless
-Roger

[Dee Dee Warren]

What is the general opinion of Dr. Missler, ...

He plays fast and loose with the facts. He has some great OT teachings on the history and stuff, but his NT stuff is abysmal.

Want to know how screwy he is? Check out Alien Encounters. And all his Y2K stuff.

I used to be a HUGE Missler fan. I have met him, and back when cassettes were the thing, I had (and still have) his heirloom edition tapes of his teachings on nearly the whole Bible. I have nearly a dozen of his "briefing tapes."

and what do you think of his view on 2 Thessalonians 2?

I will be paraphrasing Keith Mathison here, but if the Thessalonians were taught what the rapture was by Paul, and thus someone told them that it already happened, they are as dumb as rocks, and Paul's whole argument could be reduced to "Are you still here? Then it hasn't happened."

[Kelp]

My interlinear text has apostasia (apostatsy) for 2 Thes. 2. I thought that if it was refering to Christians being "taken" it would hrapazao.

But then, Jack van Impe said Jerome translated the passage with he Latin word that has become the English word "rapture". My thinking is that Jerome's purpose was to say that the apostates would be "taken" by Satan, but I'm not sure.

[nikolai_42]

Hi again,

I have another question for the eschatology boffins here; mostly the preterists, but no objection to others giving input. (Please remember, I'm not really up to speed on detailed in-depth eschatological discussions, it is an area I only have a generalised interest in; so use smaller words)

When I get up in the mornings and am getting ready for work, the 5:30am show on New Zealand's Rhema is Chuck Missler's 66/40. (NZ's Rhema is the big Christian radio station in NZ).

Now the series they've been playing is Dr. Missler's Learn the Bible in 24 Hours. And the last couple of shows have been his section on eschatology.

Dr. Missler is a futurist and pre-trib etc. He has co-authored a book with Hal Lindsey (so that should explain his position pretty well).

Now in his talk he goes into 2 Thessalonians 2. He claims that the "falling away" (in the KJV...my ESV phrases it as rebellion. GR=apostasia) should be translated to mean the Rapture. He says that this shows clearly that the rapture happens, and only then will the Anti Christ will be revealed.

He further points out (and this bit I'm happy with) that Paul comments in verse 5 that he told them these things when he was with them, indicating that Paul dealt with eschatological issues amongst Christians from when they were still very recent converts.

Dr Missler also says that Paul's comments in verses 1-3a indicate that there were forgeries around purportedly from Paul saying that the Rapture had happened (From what I gather Dr. Missler equates Day of the Lord to be the Rapture event). He says that Paul is saying that we mustn't be decieved into thinking that these things have already happened (he claims it applies to us as well) but that only when the Rapture happens will it begin.

What is the general opinion of Dr. Missler, and what do you think of his view on 2 Thessalonians 2?

(There is more, but this is the section that for some reason bugged me. I'll have to listen to the session again in order to get the other points again).

God Bless
-Roger

My first response is that I don't agree with Chuck Missler. And if he equates the Day of the Lord and the rapture AND calls the "apostasia" the Rapture, then our bible doesn't make sense. Verse 3 says "except there come a falling away first" which distinguishes it clearly from the day of Christ. In other words, if the "apostasia" is the same thing as the Day of the Lord, how can the "apostasia" happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord? But maybe I'm missing something.

As far as treating "apostasia" as some catching away of believers, either Paul had serious trouble coming up with a word for it, or it just isn't the same thing. Apostasy, as far as I know. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I think "forsake" (the other time the word is used - in Acts 21:21) seems to be pretty clearly implying a departure of loyalty, not just a general departure in body.

[Littlejoe]

Amazing!

Raphael, you have 3 responses. One from a Orthodox Preterist, one from a Futurist, and one from a historicist, and they all agree that Chuck Missler is wrongly interpreting this passage. I agree with all of them BTW FWIW! I just don't know how someone can interpret rapture from apostasia.
LJ

[Raphael]

He plays fast and loose with the facts. He has some great OT teachings on the history and stuff, but his NT stuff is abysmal.

With his Learn the Bible in 24 Hours I've only been listening to it with NT stuff....and I must admit being unhappy with several of his conslusions.

Want to know how screwy he is? Check out Alien Encounters. And all his Y2K stuff.

Will do

I used to be a HUGE Missler fan. I have met him, and back when cassettes were the thing, I had (and still have) his heirloom edition tapes of his teachings on nearly the whole Bible. I have nearly a dozen of his "briefing tapes."

So you are definitely talking from the position of knowing his works; I must admit that this is the first stuff of his I've listened to so I know very little about him. His advert for 66/40 where he says the Bible is "an integrated message system from beyond our time domain" has always made me avoid his show. The only reason I'm listening to it now is it's on when I'm doing my morning chores. (I've been trying a new daily schedule the last few days)

I will be paraphrasing Keith Mathison here, but if the Thessalonians were taught what the rapture was by Paul, and thus someone told them that it already happened, they are as dumb as rocks, and Paul's whole argument could be reduced to "Are you still here? Then it hasn't happened."

That's what I thought when I read the verses he was using for myself. I guess that's what made me rather unhappy about it.

And there is this fact that leapt out at me.
If we assume Dr. Missler to be correct and that Paul had taught of a Rapture of the believers to the Thessalonians and a "letter" from Paul saying it had happened would invalidate Paul's teachings as it would mean Paul wasn't a believer...I don't think the Thessalonians could have been that stupid. Which means that Dr. Missler is wrong in assuming that Paul was writing to correct a forgery.

[Raphael]

Amazing!

Raphael, you have 3 responses. One from a Orthodox Preterist, one from a Futurist, and one from a historicist, and they all agree that Chuck Missler is wrongly interpreting this passage. I agree with all of them BTW FWIW! I just don't know how someone can interpret rapture from apostasia.
LJ

That must mean that he is definitely wrong

He did say that it wasn't necessary to interpret it that way, but he thought that it logically should be interpreted that way.

[Bill the Cat]

My first response is that I don't agree with Chuck Missler. And if he equates the Day of the Lord and the rapture AND calls the "apostasia" the Rapture, then our bible doesn't make sense. Verse 3 says "except there come a falling away first" which distinguishes it clearly from the day of Christ. In other words, if the "apostasia" is the same thing as the Day of the Lord, how can the "apostasia" happen BEFORE the Day of the Lord? But maybe I'm missing something.

As far as treating "apostasia" as some catching away of believers, either Paul had serious trouble coming up with a word for it, or it just isn't the same thing. Apostasy, as far as I know. I'm not a Greek scholar, but I think "forsake" (the other time the word is used - in Acts 21:21) seems to be pretty clearly implying a departure of loyalty, not just a general departure in body.

apostasia comes from the root word meaning "divorce". It is used in reference to divorcing the faith, not the rapture.

[Kelp]

That's what I suspected.

[Dee Dee Warren]

With his Learn the Bible in 24 Hours I've only been listening to it with NT stuff....and I must admit being unhappy with several of his conslusions.

I started listening to him on the Old Testament and got hooked, plus the type of fellowship I was around was a bit sensationalistic.

I have met him actually two times, and spoken on the phone with him several times. The last time I confronted him on what appeared to be a blatant manipulation of the facts (he claims a certain geneaology in Genesis when translated into English spells out the Gospel message - its been quite a few years, I can find out precisely what I am referring to if you like) and he absolutely promised to get back with me on it, and never did.

He was absolutely wrong about Y2K, and I was suckered into it by him (stupid me) for a little while.

Will do

It is crazier than scientology.

So you are definitely talking from the position of knowing his works; I must admit that this is the first stuff of his I've listened to so I know very little about him. His advert for 66/40 where he says the Bible is "an integrated message system from beyond our time domain" has always made me avoid his show. The only reason I'm listening to it now is it's on when I'm doing my morning chores. (I've been trying a new daily schedule the last few days)

Yes out of all the people here, I am probably the most familiar with his works. I was into him BIG time. I have quite a few books here and a video series called something like 60 seconds in eternity or something like that where he makes some claims that are really theologically bad, and one with Dr. Mark Eastman (I don't know if they still hang together or not but they were thick as thieves back in the day) about how science proves the Bible. I also don't know if he is still tight with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa but that was his home base for a while - I have no idea if that is still the case. Sometimes he and Chuck Smith were like two peas in a pod.

I may have to drag out some of his stuff for my podcast. I was a monthly subscriber, this was probably in 99, 2000, somewhere around there for a few years, and it was IIRC like $50 a month but you got the briefing tapes and the heirloom sets and stuff. I have heard Nancy speak as well - her two teachings Faith in the Night Seasons - (the precise names are alluding me) I find to be very good, at least inasmuch as I remember them.

That spiel about message from outside our time domain is the same thing he has been trumpeting for years. Sometimes he makes scientology look normal.

Back when I was starting to abandon futurism and not wanting to is one of the time when I was able to speak to Missler - he had no cogent answer, but gave me some tapes, which answered nothing.

All that negative stuff being said, when he goes through the Old Testament he is a very talented and engaging expositor on the history of Israel. I believe you can download some of that stuff for free, it is excellent.

[Adrift]

I started listening to him on the Old Testament and got hooked, plus the type of fellowship I was around was a bit sensationalistic.

I have met him actually two times, and spoken on the phone with him several times. The last time I confronted him on what appeared to be a blatant manipulation of the facts (he claims a certain geneaology in Genesis when translated into English spells out the Gospel message - its been quite a few years, I can find out precisely what I am referring to if you like) and he absolutely promised to get back with me on it, and never did.

He was absolutely wrong about Y2K, and I was suckered into it by him (stupid me) for a little while.



It is crazier than scientology.



Yes out of all the people here, I am probably the most familiar with his works. I was into him BIG time. I have quite a few books here and a video series called something like 60 seconds in eternity or something like that where he makes some claims that are really theologically bad, and one with Dr. Mark Eastman (I don't know if they still hang together or not but they were thick as thieves back in the day) about how science proves the Bible. I also don't know if he is still tight with Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa but that was his home base for a while - I have no idea if that is still the case. Sometimes he and Chuck Smith were like two peas in a pod.

I may have to drag out some of his stuff for my podcast. I was a monthly subscriber, this was probably in 99, 2000, somewhere around there for a few years, and it was IIRC like $50 a month but you got the briefing tapes and the heirloom sets and stuff. I have heard Nancy speak as well - her two teachings Faith in the Night Seasons - (the precise names are alluding me) I find to be very good, at least inasmuch as I remember them.

That spiel about message from outside our time domain is the same thing he has been trumpeting for years. Sometimes he makes scientology look normal.

Back when I was starting to abandon futurism and not wanting to is one of the time when I was able to speak to Missler - he had no cogent answer, but gave me some tapes, which answered nothing.

All that negative stuff being said, when he goes through the Old Testament he is a very talented and engaging expositor on the history of Israel. I believe you can download some of that stuff for free, it is excellent.

Wow, I just happened upon this thread because I'm in a bi-weekly Bible study at work. The study group includes my boss who became a Christian last year, and two guys I work with, one who just recently became a Christian and the other who is very knowledgeable about the Word in many areas but is... um... a bit odd over all (let's call this guy Roy).

My boss is doing this Learn the Bible in 24 Hours deal-y that Raphael mentioned. Essentially it sounds like a commentary on tape sort of thing. I believe "Roy", got my boss hooked on Missler. He seems to know the series that my boss is reading pretty intimately.

Anyways, we've been bouncing around the Bible and decided last week to start at the beginning with Genesis. We got into Seth's line and that's when Roy went into this long explanation about how the names in Seth's line spell out the coming of the Messiah (I'm assuming this is the same thing you're talking about Dee Dee). So I'm hearing him spell this out, and i'm thinking "how come I've never heard this before". I don't have a concordance handy, but I have a small name translation sort of thing in the back of my Bible, and I'm translating the names back and no... this doesn't spell out anything really. Just a bunch of gibberish. But Roy sort of hand waves it away and I don't make a big deal about it.

Tomorrow we're going into the Noah story, but before we do this we're of course going to hit the whole Sons of God, Daughters of men thing. Roy promised our small group that he has something special to share about this subject and then turned to me to ask if I knew anything about the subject. I told him that yeah, I know there are a couple lines of thought on the issue 1.) that some people think this union was between angels and human women and that they produced the nephilim, and 2.) that Sons of God refer to Seth's line and Daughters of Men refer to Cain's (or whoever was on the earth besides Seth's line). I told him that I pretty much agreed with the latter concept for a variety of reasons... at this Roy's eyes lit up and he told me he was going to take the "other side"... like he was preparing to debate me. I'm not really interested in debating anyone on the topic, but figured I'd do a little research before tomorrow's meeting, and while doing a google search that's when Chuck's name came up. He thinks that the Nephilim have something to do with UFOs of all things !!!???!!! Wow! So then I did a search here and sure enough, apparently I wasn't imagining things. Anyhow, I think tomorrow should be pretty interesting.

[Dee Dee Warren]

Anyways, we've been bouncing around the Bible and decided last week to start at the beginning with Genesis. We got into Seth's line and that's when Roy went into this long explanation about how the names in Seth's line spell out the coming of the Messiah (I'm assuming this is the same thing you're talking about Dee Dee). So I'm hearing him spell this out, and i'm thinking "how come I've never heard this before". I don't have a concordance handy, but I have a small name translation sort of thing in the back of my Bible, and I'm translating the names back and no... this doesn't spell out anything really. Just a bunch of gibberish. But Roy sort of hand waves it away and I don't make a big deal about it.

Yeah it is that genealogy thing. I think it was Gleason Archer that exposed Missler on that whole thing and he refuses to deal with it and doesn't keep his word in order to avoid dealing with it.

The UFO thing is going to .... odd. Have fun. Too bad you couldn't have read Alien Encounters first. I have not only read it, but personally heard Missler do a whole hour teaching on it live.

I think Missler's technique "preys" (and I use this word with great reservation because it is not as if I think he is dangerous or evil or anything) on hungry young Christians that are a bit too gullible. I was one of them. And as long as that Christian has other people and material around them that will mature them in good time, Missler can actually leave a person with some good things. The man obviously loves the Bible and that remains with me and an excitement about the faith, but now with a mature view. I think he can be very harmful for those who don't have the support to mature or for a personality type that thrives on thinking it has the insider secret knowledge that most Christians don't have, i.e. perhaps those kinds that might be prime targets for cults.

I know that a good friend I had that I had helped lead to Christ and got her into all this Missler stuff had a devastating blow when she learned it was bunk - and she learned that from me as I had learned it was bunk. I know my witness to some people are work ended up being bad as written off as a bit looney due to that whole Y2K thing, and that is a real shame. It was a bit looney.

I can't even imagine what Missler is saying about 9/11. I bet it is a whopper.

[Adrift]

Yeah it is that genealogy thing. I think it was Gleason Archer that exposed Missler on that whole thing and he refuses to deal with it and doesn't keep his word in order to avoid dealing with it.

The UFO thing is going to .... odd. Have fun. Too bad you couldn't have read Alien Encounters first. I have not only read it, but personally heard Missler do a whole hour teaching on it live.

I think Missler's technique "preys" (and I use this word with great reservation because it is not as if I think he is dangerous or evil or anything) on hungry young Christians that are a bit too gullible. I was one of them. And as long as that Christian has other people and material around them that will mature them in good time, Missler can actually leave a person with some good things. The man obviously loves the Bible and that remains with me and an excitement about the faith, but now with a mature view. I think he can be very harmful for those who don't have the support to mature or for a personality type that thrives on thinking it has the insider secret knowledge that most Christians don't have, i.e. perhaps those kinds that might be prime targets for cults.

I know that a good friend I had that I had helped lead to Christ and got her into all this Missler stuff had a devastating blow when she learned it was bunk - and she learned that from me as I had learned it was bunk. I know my witness to some people are work ended up being bad as written off as a bit looney due to that whole Y2K thing, and that is a real shame. It was a bit looney.

I can't even imagine what Missler is saying about 9/11. I bet it is a whopper.

Well thanks for the input Dee Dee. I'm sure Chuck is great at the stuff you mentioned, and it appears that my boss is getting a lot out of his reading. I'm pretty sure I've read some of Missler commentary stuff in the past and thinking it sound. Still, its good to know where all these very odd ideas are coming from. Any advice on how to handle the whole UFO thing should it come up?

[Dee Dee Warren]

Any advice on how to handle the whole UFO thing should it come up?

Besides laughing?

That is a whole huge thing because you have to deal with the whole modern UFO phenomena, conspiracy theories, and bad exegesis.

Listen to this to get an idea of what you will be hearing

http://www.alienencounters.com/

whoops never mind, its not free.... bummer, I had this tape, I would have sent it to you

[Adrift]

Besides laughing?

That is a whole huge thing because you have to deal with the whole modern UFO phenomena, conspiracy theories, and bad exegesis.

Listen to this to get an idea of what you will be hearing

http://www.alienencounters.com/

whoops never mind, its not free.... bummer, I had this tape, I would have sent it to you

Well don't worry about it Dee Dee, I appreciate you're looking. I'm assuming this stuff isn't going to be too hard to rebut... At the same time, if this doesn't come up, I'm wondering if I should bother with going into the fact that Missler has some of these strange ideas to begin with. Don't know if its even worth mentioning if folks are getting good teaching out of his stuff. decisions decisions.