Federal Gun Registry Coming?

[Carrikature]

Wow, uncharacteristically snippy.

I don't mean to be snippy. I'm getting fairly frustrated with how...reactionary...people here seem to be. It seems like a little bit of effort would calm all the 'fears', but that seems to be too much trouble...or something. I dunno.

And it's been one of those weeks, which I know doesn't help.

What is "the database"?

It's part of the Next Generation Identification system that the FBI already maintains:

Source: Rap Back Service

The Rap Back Service provides authorized agencies with notification of criminal, and, in limited cases, civil activity of individuals that occurs after the initial processing and retention of criminal or civil transactions. Rap Back does not provide new authority to agencies, including the FBI, for collection of biometric and biographical information. It does, however, implement new response services to notify agencies of subsequent activity for individuals enrolled in the service. Including a more timely process of confirming suitability of those individuals placed in positions of trust and notification to users of criminal activity for those individuals placed on probation or parole.

© Copyright Original Source

From your article:

[cite=OP Article]Hawaii could become the first state in the United States to enter gun owners into an FBI database that will automatically notify police if an island resident is arrested anywhere else in the country.

Most people entered in the "Rap Back" database elsewhere in the U.S. are those in "positions of trust," such as school teachers and bus drivers, said Stephen Fischer of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division. Hawaii could be the first state to add gun owners.[/quote]

So the only thing new here is that they're proposing to have all gun owners in the system instead of just those in certain positions. And the article itself is kinda goofy. For example:

[cite=OP]Some local gun owners say the law confirms their fear that the government would know exactly who and where people keep their firearms.[/quote]

Except they're already registering their firearms. The government already knows. So the usual hoopla is again misplaced.


On the flip side, this doesn't make much sense to me:

Source: OP

Even though other states don't enter gun owners in the database, Honolulu Police Department Maj. Richard Robinson said it will still benefit Hawaii police. Right now, Hawaii gun owners undergo a background check only when they register a gun, so police have no way of knowing if they're disqualified from owning a gun in the future unless they try to register a new firearm.

"We were only discovering things by accident," said Robinson, who helped draft the bill. "They happen to come register another firearm, we run another background check, and then we find out they're a prohibited person."

© Copyright Original Source

Why is this a benefit? They're not taking registered guns away from people that become prohibited, afaict. They're just stopping them from getting new ones. Which would happen anyway as soon as the background check is run again. So...how is this helping? And if they are taking away guns after people become prohibited...isn't that what you want? To keep them out of the hands of known criminals?



So...why the fuss?

[eider]

How bout dialing down the drama a bit, eh? I'm fully aware of the hundreds of millions of guns available -- which makes it goofy to focus on the law abiding citizens.

Yeah, but who are they..... all these law abiding citizens?
Common sense suggests that law abiding citizens will support a system whereby anybody who wants a gun, pistol, rifle can have one, use one, carry one etc once they have been identified as LAW ABIDING CITIZENS!
But a lot of law abiding citizens are howling like babies because they don't want to be checked out (why?) don't trust their own State and/or government.
These law abiding citizens don't seem to mind being registered, licensed, insured to work, drive, fly aircraft etc.......
And so.... no..... beyond what licences and permits are issued today, you can't have a more developed system which, looking into the distant future, might make a difference. You can't have it!

My grandmother used to do that to me, that glare.......... 'orrible, my grandmother was.......

Yes, and no law will stop that. That's why they're criminals -- they don't obey laws.

...so why did you ever bother to legislate and license and qualify folks to do anything? Them nasty crims, they just do it all anyway........ unless of course the good guys carry proof-of-person and prooof-of-position....... oh, I forgot, you're bawling about that in connection with guns.......... yeah......... daft, I call it.

My gun fairs?

I like you...... you make me laugh. One minute you take ownership of things in your country, State etc.... the next thing you drop others like they was hot bricks.
Yes..... you can travel to gun fairs, and at some you can obntain firearms fairly easily....

President Obama wants his own late night talk show.

We would watch it. Most of the World thinks that he is one of the best Presidents that the USA ever had, but 'Hey!', what did Jesus say about prophets in their homelands?

Umm..... My guns are secure, and I'm a firearms training officer, so, you need not worry about me.

Rubbish. There is no such condition as 100% security anywhere. And you're an FTO, the best ad hominen quote so far today. Is that supposed to impress me? I tell you what would impress me, if you would be an FCO...... I'll enlarge that for you in case you think it might be a return insult to yours...... FIREARMS CONTROL OFFICER!

But you can't have it........ don't deserve it?

Oh, and I noticed you completely dodged the question.

What.... the ....So, tell me... how many of those deaths are caused by law abiding home owners as compared to criminals?.... question?

That is a gobbledegook question, because as soon as some idiot gets scared in the night and shoots a shadow outside his front door, or holds up a store, or murders a person they become a criminal, so if you are in denial like I believe that you are, it's a perfectly beautiful straw-man pov.

As I said several times, many States issue permits for some guns, and register others, and since the others will never ever see the common sense of gun control it will not go further.

[lilpixieofterror]

Your questions simply argumentative.

AKA you want to avoid them. If you don't want people aruging and debating with you, why are you on a debate forum.

I repeat......... you already require permits for conceal carry, and I don't expect to hear opf much further registration in your country anytime soon.
So you need to go shout at somebody else.

That's nice, but too bad you seemed to have implied it needs to happen or was there some point to you bringing up the numbers of deaths? Are you trying to throw out an argument and making sure you have a way by not being direct? I'm not stupid, so don't treat me like I am. BTW I'm not angry at all nor am I shouting. I'd suggest you take your psychoanalysis along with your 'argue without saying your arguing' and make it disappear.

But all the stats I have quoted I have backed up. You haven't bothered to back up any of yours. I don't think you can.

So I take it you didn't bother to look into those deaths before you decided to blurt them out. Nice, but there are not hard to find. Since you have problems with doing your homework, let me help you out:

total gun deaths US wide 2013: 33,636 per CNN source here here.
Suicides using guns US wide 2013: 21,175 per CDC. Source here.
Total suicide deaths by gun: 62.9% of total
Murders using guns US wide 2013: 8,454 per source here.
Total murders, by gun: 25.1%
Total by murders and suicides: 88.0%
We'll assume that the other 12% are accidents, so that gives us a total gun deaths, other than murder/suicide, as being 4,007 in 2013. So we arrive at 10.97 deaths per day that is not related to murders/suicide. Now, I'm just assuming the rest are accidental shootings vs undetermined.

All the stats, with sources and numbers all done. Nearly 90% of total deaths are though murder/suicide. Meaning, I am right. Unless you're suicidal, involved in crime, or careless with your guns, you're quite unlikely to be the victim of gun death.

Do you want to try this again?

[lilpixieofterror]

I'm a living, breathing example of that.

I'm rather accident prone myself. Although I have yet to end up in the hospital due to an accident, I usually have some injury due to some kind of accident.

[Sparko]

I don't mean to be snippy. I'm getting fairly frustrated with how...reactionary...people here seem to be. It seems like a little bit of effort would calm all the 'fears', but that seems to be too much trouble...or something. I dunno.

And it's been one of those weeks, which I know doesn't help.




It's part of the Next Generation Identification system that the FBI already maintains:

Source: Rap Back Service

The Rap Back Service provides authorized agencies with notification of criminal, and, in limited cases, civil activity of individuals that occurs after the initial processing and retention of criminal or civil transactions. Rap Back does not provide new authority to agencies, including the FBI, for collection of biometric and biographical information. It does, however, implement new response services to notify agencies of subsequent activity for individuals enrolled in the service. Including a more timely process of confirming suitability of those individuals placed in positions of trust and notification to users of criminal activity for those individuals placed on probation or parole.

© Copyright Original Source

From your article:

Source: OP Article

Hawaii could become the first state in the United States to enter gun owners into an FBI database that will automatically notify police if an island resident is arrested anywhere else in the country.

Most people entered in the "Rap Back" database elsewhere in the U.S. are those in "positions of trust," such as school teachers and bus drivers, said Stephen Fischer of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division. Hawaii could be the first state to add gun owners.

© Copyright Original Source

So the only thing new here is that they're proposing to have all gun owners in the system instead of just those in certain positions. And the article itself is kinda goofy. For example:

Source: OP

Some local gun owners say the law confirms their fear that the government would know exactly who and where people keep their firearms.

© Copyright Original Source

Except they're already registering their firearms. The government already knows. So the usual hoopla is again misplaced.


On the flip side, this doesn't make much sense to me:

Source: OP

Even though other states don't enter gun owners in the database, Honolulu Police Department Maj. Richard Robinson said it will still benefit Hawaii police. Right now, Hawaii gun owners undergo a background check only when they register a gun, so police have no way of knowing if they're disqualified from owning a gun in the future unless they try to register a new firearm.

"We were only discovering things by accident," said Robinson, who helped draft the bill. "They happen to come register another firearm, we run another background check, and then we find out they're a prohibited person."

© Copyright Original Source

Why is this a benefit? They're not taking registered guns away from people that become prohibited, afaict. They're just stopping them from getting new ones. Which would happen anyway as soon as the background check is run again. So...how is this helping? And if they are taking away guns after people become prohibited...isn't that what you want? To keep them out of the hands of known criminals?



So...why the fuss?

Yeah that database exists, but it currently does not track gun owners. There is no federal gun owner database, but if they start putting gun owners in that "rap back" database then it will become the first. So CP is right, there is no federal gun owners database.

[Cow Poke]

I don't mean to be snippy. I'm getting fairly frustrated with how...reactionary...people here seem to be.

Lemme know when you've calmed down a bit and can discuss this. Meanwhile, there is no federal gun registry database ---- yet.

[Carrikature]

Yeah that database exists, but it currently does not track gun owners. There is no federal gun owner database, but if they start putting gun owners in that "rap back" database then it will become the first. So CP is right, there is no federal gun owners database.

They're not creating one, either. Which is the point. They have an existing database that is already being used. They're looking at adding more people to it.

[Cow Poke]

Don't talk about gun fairs unless you've been to them. There's a lot of nonsense claims about them that just plain aren't true.

Are they really called "gun fairs"? I've only been to "Gun Shows".

[Cow Poke]

Are they really called "gun fairs"? I've only been to "Gun Shows".

So, I just Googled "Gun fair(s)" to see if that's what they call them, and every single result turned up "Gun Show(s)"

I know it might seem petty, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to call them "Gun fairs", as "fairs" tend to be festive or recreational or....

[rogue06]

Depends on the car. Imagine buying, in 2016, a '65 Mustang that had been in a garage all its life.

But I also said "or on their own property".... I know people who have pickup trucks that are not licensed - they use them entirely on their own farms or ranches.

Had cousins who were driving tractors and the like on family farms well before they were old enough to drive. If it stays on private property you don't need to license the vehicles or the drivers.

[Cow Poke]

Had cousins who were driving tractors and the like on family farms well before they were old enough to drive. If it stays on private property you don't need to license the vehicles or the drivers.

EGGzackly.... I've had vehicles and a trailer that weren't licensed -- when I decided to use the one trailer "on the road", and went to license it, I had to sign an affidavit attesting to the fact that it had not been operating on public roads during the unlicensed time frame.

(What's weird about that is that I asked the lady, jokingly, "so, if it had been used on the public roads, I could lie and get a discount, but if I tell the truth, I get penalized for back payments?" She just calmly says, "yes sir, that's how it works". )

[Cow Poke]

From the OP....

HONOLULU (AP) — Hawaii could become the first state in the United States to enter gun owners into an FBI database that will automatically notify police if an island resident is arrested anywhere else in the country.

Most people entered in the "Rap Back" database elsewhere in the U.S. are those in "positions of trust," such as school teachers and bus drivers, said Stephen Fischer of the FBI's Criminal Justice Information Services Division. Hawaii could be the first state to add gun owners.

OK, so.... (Rap Back)

Source: FBI

As part of NGI’s full operational capability, the NGI team is introducing two new services: Rap Back and the Interstate Photo System (IPS). Rap Back is a functionality that enables authorized entities the ability to receive ongoing status notifications of any criminal history reported on individuals holding positions of trust, such as school teachers. Law enforcement agencies, probation and parole offices, and other criminal justice entities will also greatly improve their effectiveness by being advised of subsequent criminal activity of persons under investigation or supervision. The IPS facial recognition service will provide the nation’s law enforcement community with an investigative tool that provides an image-searching capability of photographs associated with criminal identities. This effort is a significant step forward for the criminal justice community in utilizing biometrics as an investigative enabler.

© Copyright Original Source

This is for CRIMINAL HISTORY of individuals holding "positions of trust".... Not "maybe they'll do something criminal", but "criminal history".

To add gun owners - particularly those who have committed no crime - to this puts them in the same category as 'bad actors', and begins to change this database into a de facto Federal Gun Registry Database.

[Sparko]

They're not creating one, either. Which is the point. They have an existing database that is already being used. They're looking at adding more people to it.

You misread the article. The people in that database, do NOT have their guns registered. They are in the database for other reasons. Currently the database does not track guns. They want to ADD gun owners to that database.

Like taking the social security database, and saying they will be adding gun owners to that. The SS database already exists, but it currently doesn't track people's guns.

[rogue06]

Interesting question.
Criminals! Nasty criminals!
And since there are about 300 million guns in the USA (check it out yourself.... do some individual investigation?) criminals will get guns. Your gun fairs are completely unsupervised in some States. President Obama wants to do something about that but too many folks like such fairs.

The gun show "loophole" is largely a myth in that the vast majority of those who sell guns there are federally licensed dealers who still have to submit a background check just like they would if you entered their store. The fact is that the same laws concerning the sale of firearms apply just as much to gun shows as they do to any other place where firearms are sold.

Some gun controls groups declare that between 25 and 50% of the vendors at gun shows are unlicensed dealers but this is a deliberate attempt to obfuscate the facts and should be a red flag for trusting the validity of statistics they offer in the future. What they don't tell you is that they are mixing in vendors who are not selling firearms but rather things like books, clothing and accessories in order to arrive at their misleading figures.

ETA: Since you have to pay to sell at a gun show only those trying sell a large number of firearms (licensed dealers) generally try because it makes no sense for someone who wants to sell their father's shotgun to try to sell at a gun show. And the few individuals with one or two firearms comes in and ends up selling to one of the dealers there who are interested in used (and especially antique) firearms.

Obama likes to claim that 40% of firearms are obtained without someone going through a check. While this dated statistic is questionable, even so nearly ¾ of those are from family members or friends with only 4% getting them at a gun show. Probably even more significant is the fact that a 2001 Department of Justice study revealed that 0.7% of state and federal prison inmates bought their weapons at a gun show.

No....... you won't get change. Not even with the multi-shooting incidents that occur so regularly..........

Firearm related crimes has dropped dramatically in the past few decades whereas there has been a massive surge in folks buying guns -- especially in the Obama years.

gun sales.jpg
They set new records last year

[Cow Poke]

You misread the article. The people in that database, do NOT have their guns registered.

Correct

They are in the database for other reasons.

Yes, like breaking the law.

Currently the database does not track guns. They want to ADD gun owners to that database.

So, without due process, and without having committed a crime, a person who owns a firearm can be added in with criminals. On top of that, the gun owner has to pay an unspecified fee for the privilege of forfeiting their right to the presumption of innocence.

Now, to be clear, I would probably not oppose a requirement to add persons who own weapons IF they are already convicted on charges of crimes of violence*. As a police officer, if I approach the home of a person who, for example, has skipped bail on a crime of violence, I'd want to know if they have weapons. OTOH, I'm already assuming they probably do.



*In many cases, they lose their right to possess firearms if they are convicted of certain crimes.