Spit's anti-denominational cult page

[spitndirt]

Hi LJ, nice to hear from you.

I'm involved with a prison ministry called Kairos. It functions very well as an ecumenical ministry. Our teams are drawn from all denominations. We have your RCC's, your Lutherans, your Episcopalians, your Baptist, Your Methodist, your Non Denom's...etc...etc...It is really cool. We focus on what we have in common and leave all the other stuff at the door. And man, you should see how the Holy Spirit moves inside that Prison unit.

That sounds awesome LJ. Question: Would anything be different if you all simply lost the various denominational labels? Would this somehow affect the work you are doing in a negative way? If we are doing the Lord's work then it is the Lord's work we are doing....not RCC work or Lutheran work (etc.) - right? What terrible thing would happen if you all disassociated from your particular labels and simply continued on in the Lord's work? What great disaster would befall you?

Well personally, I think that's a sad thing....that you can't find a body that you feel comfortable worshiping in.

Thanks for you concern LJ. Thing is, I do belong to a body of believers and I know that I'm not alone. My Lord has not left me as an orphan.

I should explain why I do not gather with a denominational body in my area. When I have I've eventually been asked to stop speaking and questioning, start toeing the doctrinal line of that particular denomination, or vacate the premises. I will eventually be speaking about these experiences later on in my testimony. You can judge for yourself whether or not I should remain in a place where I am bound and gagged by men who themselves cannot give a reasonable explanation as to why I should believe things that I have never known to be true? - things that I know have nothing to do with the one true faith.

What do you answer to the commandment to not forsake the gathering together?

Jesus said "...whenever two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst of them...". No denominational labels required. If our God does not require them....and is not pleased with them, why are we not of the same mind? The Lord hates factions and abhores discord among brothers. Who are we, then, to accept such a thing or treat it as valid in regards to the faith and to Gospel of Christ?

Let me be clear here. I know that I have many brothers within the church(es)....and there are other ways to fellowship without entering into a mixed group where often times the inmates are runnin the asylum (so to speak). But let my brothers challenge the status quo as they ought and they will fully understand my position. It is not so much by my choice... but really by theirs. They would rather I not attend thier services. Granted, I live in a very small rural town and rocking the boat - however innocently - is not received well. Perhaps it is different where you live. I have been condemned by the Lutherans here....and the local AOG leadership (and their pets) became weary of my calling them on their many overdramatic conjurings. Again...I will go into all the details later on.

"not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near."

Again....we can't limit the Word of God by placing it in a denominational box. Two or three brothers can gather without them and Jesus would still be in their midst. He is, after all, Lord of all the earth.

I know I enjoy going to church. I look forward to it. Having a church family that cares about you and is there to help you when things go south. When I was in a car wreck early Sunday morning, my associate pastor came to the hospital during church to check on me and my kids. They took up an offering for me to help me replace my car that was totalled (I never even hinted that I needed help with it).

That's an awesome display of Christian love, LJ. Now, go and ask your church why they need to label themselves so as to set themselves apart. Men who do for their fellows what your brothers have done for you are truly set apart by love.....and *God* is love. Jesus said "...they will know you by your love, one for another...". Sorry....but I find no Word of God that mentions labels or theological statements of faith. Why split the glory between men....and the One who will share His glory with no man?

If you isolate yourself, then your faith can become pretty lonely!

LJ

If I am isolated it is not really by myself or others. I have One who sticks closer to me that a brother. So....I am not alone, nor am I forsaken. And I have many brothers right here on TWEB. Denominationalism certainly hasn't cornered the market on fellowship despite it's never-ending efforts to do so.

Peace to you my brother.....and I hope my friend as well.

[Littlejoe]

Hi LJ, nice to hear from you.



That sounds awesome LJ. Question: Would anything be different if you all simply lost the various denominational labels? Would this somehow affect the work you are doing in a negative way? If we are doing the Lord's work then it is the Lord's work we are doing....not RCC work or Lutheran work (etc.) - right? What terrible thing would happen if you all disassociated from your particular labels and simply continued on in the Lord's work? What great disaster would befall you?

Nice to be heard!
Actually, the denominational thing works in our favor...oddly enough. Inside most prisons, gang affiliation and therefore, gang violence is rampant. When we do our introductions, (there are about 50-60 team members) and they see all of these "rival gangs" working and playing together, accepting one another and generally enjoying each others company, it makes a powerful first impression they think......"hey, these christian folks are different."

Thanks for you concern LJ. Thing is, I do belong to a body of believers and I know that I'm not alone. My Lord has not left me as an orphan.

I should explain why I do not gather with a denominational body in my area. When I have I've eventually been asked to stop speaking and questioning, start toeing the doctrinal line of that particular denomination, or vacate the premises. I will eventually be speaking about these experiences later on in my testimony. You can judge for yourself whether or not I should remain in a place where I am bound and gagged by men who themselves cannot give a reasonable explanation as to why I should believe things that I have never known to be true? - things that I know have nothing to do with the one true faith.

How many have you been asked to leave? I think I'll wait for the sequel post concerning the bold part.

Jesus said "...whenever two or three are gathered in My name, there I am in the midst of them...". No denominational labels required. If our God does not require them....and is not pleased with them, why are we not of the same mind? The Lord hates factions and abhores discord among brothers. Who are we, then, to accept such a thing or treat it as valid in regards to the faith and to Gospel of Christ?

Well...yeah he did say that...but in context, it doesn't say what you're wanting it to say here. Jesus was actually addressing church discipline here in Matt 18. See in vs 15 "If your brother sins against you..." go talk to him in private first, vs 16 if that doesn't work take two or three brothers, vs 17 if that doesn't work take it to the whole church, vs 18 gives the church that authority vs 19 that you quote starts 19: "again I say ..." he is simply restating the authority of two or three witnesses in doing His business when some is in unrepentant sin against you. Sorry, I can't agree with you here.

Let me be clear here. I know that I have many brothers within the church(es)....and there are other ways to fellowship without entering into a mixed group where often times the inmates are runnin the asylum (so to speak). But let my brothers challenge the status quo as they ought and they will fully understand my position. It is not so much by my choice... but really by theirs. They would rather I not attend thier services. Granted, I live in a very small rural town and rocking the boat - however innocently - is not received well. Perhaps it is different where you live. I have been condemned by the Lutherans here....and the local AOG leadership (and their pets) became weary of my calling them on their many overdramatic conjurings. Again...I will go into all the details later on.

I forget your in a smaller community that probably has limited choices. Here we have more choices than you can shake a stick at.
Well I'm AoG, so I'm disappointed that it didn't work out, but again, I'll wait and read what you have to say, as of right now I don't have enough info to make any sort of judgement.

Again....we can't limit the Word of God by placing it in a denominational box. Two or three brothers can gather without them and Jesus would still be in their midst. He is, after all, Lord of all the earth.

see above comment

That's an awesome display of Christian love, LJ. Now, go and ask your church why they need to label themselves so as to set themselves apart. Men who do for their fellows what your brothers have done for you are truly set apart by love.....and *God* is love. Jesus said "...they will know you by your love, one for another...". Sorry....but I find no Word of God that mentions labels or theological statements of faith. Why split the glory between men....and the One who will share His glory with no man?

Maybe I'm just not as onery as you! Because as you know by now (after our discussions on other issues) , I don't tow the party line when it comes to official AoG doctrine. (I'm assuming from your comment above you're familar with AoG). But also, my church may be different than the one you are referencing.
BTW, our motto in Kairos is: "Listen, Listen, Love, Love. I try (but many times fail) to make this my everyday practice.

If I am isolated it is not really by myself or others. I have One who sticks closer to me that a brother. So....I am not alone, nor am I forsaken. And I have many brothers right here on TWEB. Denominationalism certainly hasn't cornered the market on fellowship despite it's never-ending efforts to do so.

Yes, that is true! But just as man can never, ever, replace fellowship and friendship with God, so also, can God not fully take the place of fellowship and friendship with men. But again, I don't really know your situation yet, so, I'm looking forward to hearing more.

Peace to you my brother

And to you as well my brother!

.....and I hope my friend as well.

*Checks profile* yep.... your still on my buddy list!

LJ

[Bernie]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. As a frequent critic of denominationalism or organized religion myself, have come to find myself in a quandry in recent years on this issue.

It occurred to me years ago that if a body of those convinced of the same truths you contend for in this thread got together and formed a "true" gathering, it would almost certainly, over time (probably a short time), take on the same baggage that has become the focal point of criticism used to found it in the first place. My own theology accounts for this pretty well. Every whole (indiviudal) exists in a fragmented state; fragmented good and evil each adds its own tidal force to human thought and behavior. When we're given good things, like God's Truth, we naturally corrupt it--individually and corporately.

This brings me to a fork in the road in my own thinking.

On the one hand, because good/evil are fragmented in every indiviudal, so will the effects of each individual (in a moral, ethical or prescriptive sense) be transmitted to thought and action within any organization, secular or religious. The whole will always only consist in a sum of attractions/replusions to Truth which follow from the cumulative affiliations of its members. Because this is true (my assumption, anyway), in the end, because we're all stuck in an error-ridden world, to choose from among corrupt organizations a place to hang one's hat is at least a forgiveable evil itself.

On the other hand, because one who joins organizations must, both implicitly and practically, adopt some form of alliance with the groupmind one finds oneself in--or one will quickly find oneself on one's arse out on the sidewalk--it might be proper to remain on the "outside" of systematized Christianity and contribute to its overall dialog what one may by God's grace. This requires of necessity a lonely existence from a certain standpoint, but I think you're right on in suggesting that one who takes this road (assuming it proper and in God's will to do so and not merely as a personal rant) is never alone. Even if He who guides tends to push in directions one doesn't want to go, one can rest in the knowledge that its direction is nonetheless proper.

The danger in the latter scenario is that to be made capable of contributing from this existence comes at a heavy price. From whom much is given, much is required. For example, the pressure to give in to the draw of elitism is greater: "Look at me, I'm an exclusive member of those whose wisdom transcends the organizational level!"

To sum [with respect to denominationalism or organized Christianity]: to join, or not to join, that is the question. In each case, things are lost and gained. In the end, we all go where God sends or allows, to His own good pleasure, somehow. I sure haven't figured it out.

Looking forward to reading more of your 'rant', spit/dirt.

[spitndirt]

I've enjoyed reading this thread. As a frequent critic of denominationalism or organized religion myself, have come to find myself in a quandry in recent years on this issue.

Thanks for reading Bernie. Sorry I haven't spent much time posting here. Like I said, I have to be in a certain frame of mind to speak about my own experiences. And I think we are not in the minority wondering what division has really accomplished outside of perpetuating all the strife and contention.

It occurred to me years ago that if a body of those convinced of the same truths you contend for in this thread got together and formed a "true" gathering, it would almost certainly, over time (probably a short time), take on the same baggage that has become the focal point of criticism used to found it in the first place.

Yes....I have thought about this and I agree. Yet I also know that God is well able to distinguish His own from those who are bent upon dividing over trivial matters. The reprobate know no bounds when it comes to knit-picking words and phrases....or so it seems to me. I am of the mind that these should be driven out instead of.....like, say.....my kind

My own theology accounts for this pretty well. Every whole (indiviudal) exists in a fragmented state; fragmented good and evil each adds its own tidal force to human thought and behavior. When we're given good things, like God's Truth, we naturally corrupt it--individually and corporately.

I understand your point but would add to it another truth. That God is able to perfect one's faith so that he only retains what is truly essential for life and godliness. Sorry...but I can find no reason to accept that personal opinions about "partly seen" realities are meant to be used as standards to judge one another unto condemnation. Paul said "...all that counts is faith expressing itself in love...". John went on to say "...he who loves knows God....". In light of these scriptures I cannot see what is so dern vital in "being" right about certain things we can now only see in part as through a glass darkly. It seems right to me that if we love one another as our Lord has loved us then we are "doing" right. So I ask myself what is essential.....being right or doing right. In my mind these two things tend to produce contridictory actions in the place where the rubber meets the road. One who is into being right will tend to judge those around him according to his own thoughts. On the other hand, one who is into doing right will tend to walk humbly before God and his fellows not keeping record of any perceived wrongs. One is not content to leave all judgment to God whereas the other is content to do right and leave all judgment to God....who is the only One who truly knows the hearts of all men. Am I making any sense?

On the one hand, because good/evil are fragmented in every indiviudal, so will the effects of each individual (in a moral, ethical or prescriptive sense) be transmitted to thought and action within any organization, secular or religious.

Yes.....true enough. Yet if one counts himself as nothing and commits to doing the will of another (God in this case) then he will not be seeking his own glory but the glory of the One he has committed himself to. In other words, if we were all found doing God's will unity would be unavoidable. So.....denominationalism is shown to be the result of trying to mix what cannot be mixed.

The whole will always only consist in a sum of attractions/replusions to Truth which follow from the cumulative affiliations of its members. Because this is true (my assumption, anyway), in the end, because we're all stuck in an error-ridden world, to choose from among corrupt organizations a place to hang one's hat is at least a forgiveable evil itself.

I had thought this too for a long time. That is, until I seriously considered the other option....to not hang my hat anywhere except on the teachings of my Lord. If I obey His teachings only and men continue to find error in me then they are the ones in error...not me. And if I truly am in error let my brothers point out which command I am disobeying so that I can consider it and seek to realign myself with the truth. However, let no man call me to faith in any number of particular theological deductions. No! I will reject every notion that men count as essential save the notion of loving one another as God has loved us. He who loves fulfills the Royal Command as well as the Law and the Prophets. It is for this very reason that Christ died. Not to forgive my sins only....but that a new way of life be opened up to me that I might walk in it to the glory of my Lord. God is able to produce this in those who become willing to empty themselves so that God is all that remains operational in them.

On the other hand, because one who joins organizations must, both implicitly and practically, adopt some form of alliance with the groupmind one finds oneself in--or one will quickly find oneself on one's arse out on the sidewalk--it might be proper to remain on the "outside" of systematized Christianity and contribute to its overall dialog what one may by God's grace.

Yes.....and this is my present position. I don't like it.....but it is what it is in the Lord just as I am what I am in the Lord.

This requires of necessity a lonely existence from a certain standpoint, but I think you're right on in suggesting that one who takes this road (assuming it proper and in God's will to do so and not merely as a personal rant) is never alone. Even if He who guides tends to push in directions one doesn't want to go, one can rest in the knowledge that its direction is nonetheless proper.

You have a good eye my friend. In my own case it must be God's will since I have not left denominational Christianity entirely willingly but mostly according to the will of others. I have found myself not welcome and that my remaining tended to cause even more strife and contention. Even so I am aware that I am not alone in this. Jesus was treated far worse than I have ever been and I am by no means greater than He.

You have also touched on something that I try and remain constantly aware of. Whether I am merely ranting (as I can be prone to do at times) or speaking honestly from my own heart without passing judgment on those reading along.

The danger in the latter scenario is that to be made capable of contributing from this existence comes at a heavy price. From whom much is given, much is required. For example, the pressure to give in to the draw of elitism is greater: "Look at me, I'm an exclusive member of those whose wisdom transcends the organizational level!"

I hear you Bernie. If I am ever appearing to be like this feel free to verbally smack me around a bit. I do not think of myself in this light. In fact quite the contrary. I am truly less than my brothers in the Lord not even deserving of being counted among them.Yet I am what I am.

To sum [with respect to denominationalism or organized Christianity]: to join, or not to join, that is the question. In each case, things are lost and gained. In the end, we all go where God sends or allows, to His own good pleasure, somehow. I sure haven't figured it out.

I agree....and I certainly don't have all the answers. So I have decided to simply share my personal experiences and let the chips fall where they may.

Looking forward to reading more of your 'rant', spit/dirt.

Cool......will get back to it in the near future.

Peace....

[spitndirt]

LJ said...

Well...yeah he did say that...but in context, it doesn't say what you're wanting it to say here. Jesus was actually addressing church discipline here in Matt 18. See in vs 15 "If your brother sins against you..." go talk to him in private first, vs 16 if that doesn't work take two or three brothers, vs 17 if that doesn't work take it to the whole church, vs 18 gives the church that authority vs 19 that you quote starts 19: "again I say ..." he is simply restating the authority of two or three witnesses in doing His business when some is in unrepentant sin against you. Sorry, I can't agree with you here.

Hello LJ. Long time no speak to. How's the remodeling project going??? I am involved in one of those myself......one that never seems to end.

Anyway, as to your point. Consider whether Jesus is applying a constant truth to a particular situation. It would seem strange to think that Jesus is among us only in disciplinary matters. He said in another place "...I will be with you always, even to the end of the age...". We are God's constant dwelling place....His temple if you will.

Later then.....

[Littlejoe]

Hello LJ. Long time no speak to.

Yeah, I was totally gassed from the Kairos weekend, and haven't really got back into the swing of things here at TWEB.

How's the remodeling project going???

Slow but sure. Below I have attached before and after pic's to date! That too has been a time drain! (remember, we bought this 80 yr old, ranshackle place at a song!)

I am involved in one of those myself......one that never seems to end.

I can identify with you brother!

Anyway, as to your point. Consider whether Jesus is applying a constant truth to a particular situation. It would seem strange to think that Jesus is among us only in disciplinary matters. He said in another place "...I will be with you always, even to the end of the age...". We are God's constant dwelling place....His temple if you will.

Later then.....

Well, my point is not that Christ doesn't dwell with us, (I think he surely does!) it's that this passage isn't refering to that. If it does, then it is saying we must have 2 or 3 gathered for Christ to be with us. I'm sure you would not agree that that is the case! Right?
Anyway, my experience with Kairos has opened my eyes to the ecumenical possiblities that do exist in todays church. The evidence of that is our success rate inside prisons around the world. When these guys see "rival gangs" (i.e. many denominations) represented on our team, it really makes an impression on them!

LJ