What more needs to be said? Yirm'yahu says it all!

[Sparko]

Actually the words used are וַיִּפַּח בְּאַפָּיו נִשְׁמַת חַיִּים, literally "He blew into his nose a n'shamah of life"; but this is a figurative rather than literal usage and "infused" would be just as good a translation - some would even say a better one. Does anyone really imagine God giving the adam mouth-to-mouth artificial respiration?

I agree. and when we say scripture is "inspired" we don't literally mean God has breath either. It is a figure of speech. so your comment

I very much disapprove of the use of inspire in this connection because it means "breathe", something God does not do.

is unjustifiably legalistic.

[Mordochai]

I learn something new everyday. I suppose you can disregard my statement "Think of it as a reminder to all of us" as it appears the verse doesn't apply to those who are governed by the authority of the Talmud.

"The verse doesn't apply to those... the authority of the Talmud" - WHAT "verse"??? It would be nice to know what you're talking about.

Well I guess those pesky Christ following first century Jews knew their Bible after all. And please Mordochai will you refrain from labeling the NT writers pagan in passing? You know this is offensive to Christians. Think of it as a compromise to your request not to spell out the name of G_d.
(Of course if you want to discuss the matter at length then why not start a thread on it?)

But the Greek testament writers WERE pagans - for sure they weren't Hebrews! And moreover no Hebrews of the "first century" were "christ followers" either, because christ (χριστος) is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ mashiyah and, unlike you, they SPOKE Hebrew and so they would have known what מָשִׁיחַ mashiyah actually means. In fact when you repaeat, unthinking, ridiculous untruths like that one, you are guilty of the very thing you have just accused me of - being offensive. But the difference is that my statement was accurate and factual - and the prohibition against using the Four Letters is written in the Torah for all to see.

[TomSki]

But the Greek testament writers WERE pagans - for sure they weren't Hebrews! And moreover no Hebrews of the "first century" were "christ followers" either, because christ (χριστος) is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ mashiyah and, unlike you, they SPOKE Hebrew and so they would have known what מָשִׁיחַ mashiyah actually means. In fact when you repaeat, unthinking, ridiculous untruths like that one, you are guilty of the very thing you have just accused me of - being offensive. But the difference is that my statement was accurate and factual - and the prohibition against using the Four Letters is written in the Torah for all to see.

Discrediting Christianity should have come much easier for the Jews of the first century if that was the case, but first century Christians lived among the Jews as just another sect of Judaism - it's a verifiable fact, unlike Mordocai's own rewrite of history.

But since Jesus was and is the Messiah, the Judaism that followed on without acknowledging him is a false religion and is not the Judaism Moses taught.

[Weboh2]

In any case, when the Hebrew/Aramaic name יֵשׁוּעַ Yéshua is transliterated into Greek the result is Ιεσοας because Greek as neither Y nor SH (and Greek grammar requires masculine names to end with -s), and when this is transliterated again into Latin it becomes IESUAS, or JESUAS in late mediæval Latin and English - but what has happened to the "A" in Latin and English texts? It simply isn't there, and that is the final proof that the name being represented isn't the Babylonian Yéshua at all, but the Palestinian YÉSHU.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[greek]IhsouV[/greek] is the actual greek spelling.

[John Goddard]

But the Greek testament writers WERE pagans - for sure they weren't Hebrews!

You can say the Church is pagan but you'd have to prove that the NT teaches Trinity to say the authors of it were. And I guarantee you can't do that. It says nothing more than God made Jesus a God over us, just like He did with Moses. But both were still human.

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

See, Moses was "God" too.

[Sparko]

John you are just fuzzing up the issue with your unorthodoxy. the bible clearly says Jesus is God over and over. It says he created everything that was created. It says he will do the judging between the sheep and goats, it says he is everything that God in the Old Testament was: Judge, Creator, Light, Rock, Good Shepherd, The Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, "I AM", King, Savior, etc.

Only by blindly ignoring the whole of the New Testament can you hold on to your heresy.

[John Goddard]

John you are just fuzzing up the issue with your unorthodoxy. the bible clearly says Jesus is God over and over. It says he created everything that was created. It says he will do the judging between the sheep and goats, it says he is everything that God in the Old Testament was: Judge, Creator, Light, Rock, Good Shepherd, The Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, "I AM", King, Savior, etc.

Only by blindly ignoring the whole of the New Testament can you hold on to your heresy.

The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God, the Church does. Jesus taught that we all have the same father God. Jesus was David's own son resurrected into Mary, a human.

The I AM discussion was about him being like Melchizedek, not about being God.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

So Jesus said "I am he, that Messiah which is like Melchizedek you have been waiting for."

Jesus never said he was God.

[Sparko]

The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God, the Church does. Jesus taught that we all have the same father God. Jesus was David's own son resurrected into Mary, a human.

The I AM discussion was about him being like Melchizedek, not about being God.

John 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Hebrews 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

Hebrews 5:4 And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Hebrews 7:1-2 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Psalms 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

So Jesus said "I am he, that Messiah which is like Melchizedek you have been waiting for."

Jesus never said he was God.

I am sure you can cut and paste verses to make the bible say anything you want. It still doesnt change the fact that the bible says that Jesus is God over and over, when you read it in CONTEXT.

The bible is not a smorgasbord.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

1 Timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

[Mordochai]

I agree. and when we say scripture is "inspired" we don't literally mean God has breath either. It is a figure of speech. so your comment

I very much disapprove of the use of inspire in this connection because it means "breathe", something God does not do.

is unjustifiably legalistic.

What is your problem with "legalistic"? My English Dictionary defines "legalistic" as

"adj. - of or pertaining to legalism

and "legalism" as

"n. - strict adherence to the letter of law"

so that, combining the two definitions, "legalistic" means

"of or pertaining to strict adherence to the letter of law".

But what is your problem with "adherence to the letter of law"? Scripture is FULL of verses saying how much God wants us to keep His Laws... a prime example is D'varim 10:12-13, where God says He wants us to "respect" Him, to "walk in all His ways", and to "love" and "serve" Him wholeheartedly and even at the cost of our lives, by obeying His "commandments" and His "statutes".... (in other places it also uses other legalistic words like "laws" and "ordinances"). So keeping His Laws seems very important to Him...

[John Goddard]

I am sure you can cut and paste verses to make the bible say anything you want. It still doesnt change the fact that the bible says that Jesus is God over and over, when you read it in CONTEXT.

John 8 is almost word for word with Hebrews, did you even read it? Jesus was talking about being greater than Abraham as Melchizedek. Aside from being King that's his main role, to be priest that atones for the people.

We already have a God, we don't need two of them.

The bible is not a smorgasbord.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

God's word is what God says, LET THERE BE LIGHT.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

That's called a prophet, the Holy Spirit dwelling in a man and speaking God's Word. Thus God's Word is made flesh because it is spoken through a prophet.

1 Timothy 3:16And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God manifests in a lot of men, but most fully in Jesus being the greatest prophet:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." 28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

Moses was Aaron's God too, but Moses wasn't really deity:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him (AARON) instead of God.

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

Two entities here, our God plus our Savior Jesus:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

Same thing, Jesus is in the role of God over us but not another God besides God, that violates the commandments:

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him (AARON) instead of God.

Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

So you have to do a lot better than that to prove that the NT says Jesus is God.

[Sparko]

What is your problem with "legalistic"? My English Dictionary defines "legalistic" asand "legalism" asso that, combining the two definitions, "legalistic" meansBut what is your problem with "adherence to the letter of law"? Scripture is FULL of verses saying how much God wants us to keep His Laws... a prime example is D'varim 10:12-13, where God says He wants us to "respect" Him, to "walk in all His ways", and to "love" and "serve" Him wholeheartedly and even at the cost of our lives, by obeying His "commandments" and His "statutes".... (in other places it also uses other legalistic words like "laws" and "ordinances"). So keeping His Laws seems very important to Him...

oh the irony.

:irony:

Why DON'T you keep his commandments perfectly then Mordochai? I know you have broken them. We all have. Why shouldn't he condemn you when you stand before him for breaking his laws?

But back to the topic. You seem to enjoy nitpicking the meanings of words in order to sound scholarly, and peppering your posts with Hebrew as if it bolsters your case. But in fact, all you are doing is being pedantic. You weasel over someone using "inspire" in regards to God giving us scripture, because God doesn't breath. But when I point out that Gen 2:7 says God breathed life into Adam, you say "oh that's just figurative language"

Well DUH! So is it figurative language when it is said that scripture is "God Breathed" It doesn't literally mean that God breathed scripture, It means he influenced men to write the scriptures. That the scriptures are divine. Surely you believe that the Torah is the word of God? And the books of the prophets and wisdom? They are not merely men's words are they?

So stop being so legalistic and pedantic.

[Mordochai]

Exodus 4:16 And he shall be thy spokesman unto the people: and he shall be, even he shall be to thee instead of a mouth, and thou (MOSES) shalt be to him instead of God.

See, Moses was "God" too.

The word אֱלֹהִים elohim in Shmot 4:16 is not being used as a name of God; it means a master or leader

"he will speak to the people on your behalf - he will become your spokesman, and you will be his master".

Suggesting that Mosheh was any kind of God is sheer blasphemy - no Hebrew has ever "prayed" to him or "praised" him, etc etc etc.

[John Goddard]

The word אֱלֹהִים elohim in Shmot 4:16 is not being used as a name of God; it means a master or leader

"he will speak to the people on your behalf - he will become your spokesman, and you will be his master".

Suggesting that Mosheh was any kind of God is sheer blasphemy - no Hebrew has ever "prayed" to him or "praised" him, etc etc etc.

It means Moses acts as God to Aaron and Aaron acts as prophet to the people.

That's my point, Moses isn't literally turned into a God, but he is placed into that position over the people by God. Same with Jesus, not literally a deity but given a lot of power over the people by God.

[Sparko]

John 8 is almost word for word with Hebrews, did you even read it? Jesus was talking about being greater than Abraham as Melchizedek. Aside from being King that's his main role, to be priest that atones for the people.

We already have a God, we don't need two of them.

we only have one. Jesus is the same God as the Father.

God's word is what God says, LET THERE BE LIGHT.



That's called a prophet, the Holy Spirit dwelling in a man and speaking God's Word. Thus God's Word is made flesh because it is spoken through a prophet.

It says that the Word became FLESH. I Tim 3:16 says God became FLESH. there is no misunderstanding that unless you are willfully ignorant as you seem to be doing.

Two entities here, our God plus our Savior Jesus:

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ

Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

tell me John, when will God appear? The only Glorious Appearing will be that of Jesus. so who is appearing John? Hmmm? Jesus is appearing. so who is the great God? Jesus. Nobody has seen the Father but that whom the Father has sent. The Father is not going to Appear.

[John Goddard]

we only have one. Jesus is the same God as the Father.

No he isn't, Jesus is also a man. Father God is 100% God. That's where Trinity fails.

It says that the Word became FLESH. I Tim 3:16 says God became FLESH. there is no misunderstanding that unless you are willfully ignorant as you seem to be doing.

Sure, it means God dwells in a man, that being the Holy Spirit. God became flesh in Moses too, when he spoke, Pharaoh should have obeyed the words of Moses as if they were the words of God Himself. We call that a prophet, but it doesn't turn the man into a God, he is still a servant of God. Jesus had to pray to God to save his life, God doesn't have to pray to anyone.

Hebrews 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

tell me John, when will God appear? The only Glorious Appearing will be that of Jesus. so who is appearing John? Hmmm? Jesus is appearing. so who is the great God? Jesus. Nobody has seen the Father but that whom the Father has sent. The Father is not going to Appear.

From now on Jesus will be the face of God because he is the human mediator between God and men, just like Moses was when the appearance of God shone on his face. But Jesus is still in that role by God's pleasure, because God gave it to him for his obedience. Not because he was born a God that inherently had all that power by himself.

John 5:26-27 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

No one gives God life or authority, he already has it.