An intersting discovery

[themuzicman]

Roman 11

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved

This may go back a bit to the discussion of what mean mean by "until" (See any discussion on whether Mary was a perpetual virgin), but I think the change that "until" refers to has to do with "partial" rather than "hardening." Here's why:

1) From chapter 9, Paul has been speaking of how God has kept His promises to Israel, and pointing out that God has the right to create vessels prepared for wrath and vessels prepared for glory, and how God is just in doing so, and then mentions that Israel sought righteousness through the law, but did not attain it, but Gentiles, along with some Jews did not seek it, but attained it through faith.

2) Then, in the beginning of Chapter 11, Paul returns to this question of God keeping His promises to Israel, and says that they are kept through the remnant.

3) Then we have this statement:

Romans 11

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

Notice that Paul's intent (or at least part of it), is that by preaching and converting Gentiles, that some Jews might be saved through jealousy.

4) So, we come to verses 25 and 26, and we see that as Gentiles are saved, some Jews become jealous and come, as well.

Now, here's the key: The word "SO" in verse 26 has the general meaning of "in this way" or "in the same way." Now, there isn't a comparison, so the second one doesn't make sense, but the first does. If we keep with the idea that God keeps His promise to all Israel through the remnant, then "all Israel" will be defined by those Jews who are made jealous and come to Christ as the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Thus "until" refers to the time when Jews will no longer come in, and those who remain under the law are now completely hardened.

Let's translate "so" more literally:

Roman 11

25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved

I've always wondered about the seeming disconnect between the first part of Romans 11 and these verses, and this makes sense to me.

Am I missing something?

Michael

[eschaton]

Do you mean the fullness of the Gentiles completes the salvation of all of Israel?

[themuzicman]

That's what Paul seems to be saying: Once all the Gentiles who are going to be saved are saved, the "jealousy machine" for Jews stops, and no more Jews get saved.

Michael

[bridgeforsale]

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

In the first instance, I don't think Paul is saying the Gentiles who did not seek it found it; rather Paul is saying those who sought it through faith rather than works found it.

Secondly, I do think Paul might be revealing that all of Israel will be saved:

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes. (Romans 11:28)

Here we see Paul referencing the Jewish people (not just "spiritual Israel"). Paul is saying that those who retain their Jewish identity still find favor in God's eye's (this distinction is made obvious because Paul starts out by saying "concerning the Gospel, they are enemies for your sake").

Thus, the hardening of Israel of the "flesh" is only a temporary condition, which will be lifted according to God's plan. Apparently the hardening of the Jewish people probably still facilitates the growth of Christianity in some way. I guess when Christianity has spread to its maximum point the hardening will be lifted? It seems the jealousy machine has largely stopped churning, since we don't see much conversion from Judaism to Christianity these days (all though there is some). I think the "jealousy" machine as it were was more of a hope of Paul; but the revelation of the eventual re-inclusion of "flesh" Israel seems to have been a divine revelation (honestly though it is sort of vague).

Perhaps the second coming of Christ will finally make it apparent to the Jewish people? I wish I could answer this.


AW

[themuzicman]

That's the other reading of it, but I just don't see from Paul's opening in Romans 9, and then the repetition in early Romans 11 regarding the promises being kept through the remnant create a dissonance with th idea of lifting of the hardening, and the text of Romans 11:25-26 seems to mitigate against it, as well, since it appears that the fullness of the Gentiles completes the process.

And I think God does keep His promise, even in being beloved, through the remnant who are saved from those who are enemies of Paul.

Michael

[eschaton]

That makes sense to me.

[bridgeforsale]

That's the other reading of it, but I just don't see from Paul's opening in Romans 9, and then the repetition in early Romans 11 regarding the promises being kept through the remnant create a dissonance with th idea of lifting of the hardening, and the text of Romans 11:25-26 seems to mitigate against it, as well, since it appears that the fullness of the Gentiles completes the process.

And I think God does keep His promise, even in being beloved, through the remnant who are saved from those who are enemies of Paul.

Michael

Michael:

I think yours is the more traditional view, and the view I've always held; but I'm having a hard time getting past the point where Paul identifies those who are hardened but will eventually be saved as those who were (at that time) "enemies of the Gospel"?

Paul seems to be saying that although the Jewish people are enemies of the Gospel, they are enemies for our sake (this was God's plan in order that the Gospel of Christ would spread to the Gentiles). However, though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still loved by God on account of the oaths made to their forefathers.

It's sort of strange, since in other areas (such as Chapter 9) Paul explains that the promises made to the patriarchs were really sealed by faith; and spiritual lineage (seed) was the decisive factor (rather than blood lineage).

However, perhaps since God created the wrongful perception that blood lineage demarcates the covenant people (as an element in His plan to spread Christianity) it seems that perhaps God will not dishonor the perceived substance of His oaths.

In other words God's righteousness and faithfulness exceeds all expectations. In accordance with His justice and mercy He afforded the spirits in prison from before the flood another opportunity at redemption. Even though it was they who were wicked God still required that they have a fair chance, which apparently they never had because they were left with no law, no Savior, and no patriarchs. In the same way perhaps God still will be faithful to His promises to the Jewish forefathers, even though those promises were erroneously construed by the Jewish people. He does so because He designed them to be wrongfully construed by them; thus in accordance with basic fairness He won't punish them for merely being unwitting pawns in His plan, so to speak?


AW

[themuzicman]

Michael:

I think yours is the more traditional view, and the view I've always held; but I'm having a hard time getting past the point where Paul identifies those who are hardened but will eventually be saved as those who were (at that time) "enemies of the Gospel"?

We were all enemies of the gospel before we were saved. I think they're identified as such because Jews then, just as now, reject Christ and reject those who embrace Christ as messiah.

Paul seems to be saying that although the Jewish people are enemies of the Gospel, they are enemies for our sake (this was God's plan in order that the Gospel of Christ would spread to the Gentiles). However, though they are enemies of the Gospel they are still loved by God on account of the oaths made to their forefathers.

It's sort of strange, since in other areas (such as Chapter 9) Paul explains that the promises made to the patriarchs were really sealed by faith; and spiritual lineage (seed) was the decisive factor (rather than blood lineage).

However, perhaps since God created the wrongful perception that blood lineage demarcates the covenant people (as an element in His plan to spread Christianity) it seems that perhaps God will not dishonor the perceived substance of His oaths.

I think chapter 9 says something else. Chapter 9 seems to indicate that those who embrace blood lineage are in the vessel prepared for wrath, and those who embrace faith are those prepared for glory.

In other words God's righteousness and faithfulness exceeds all expectations. In accordance with His justice and mercy He afforded the spirits in prison from before the flood another opportunity at redemption. Even though it was they who were wicked God still required that they have a fair chance, which apparently they never had because they were left with no law, no Savior, and no patriarchs. In the same way perhaps God still will be faithful to His promises to the Jewish forefathers, even though those promises were erroneously construed by the Jewish people. He does so because He designed them to be wrongfully construed by them; thus in accordance with basic fairness He won't punish them for merely being unwitting pawns in His plan, so to speak?

That just doesn't resonate with the potter and vessels analogy from chapter 9.

Michael

[bridgeforsale]

We were all enemies of the gospel before we were saved. I think they're identified as such because Jews then, just as now, reject Christ and reject those who embrace Christ as messiah.

agreed, however, promises were made to the Jewish people, which were not made to the population at large.

I think chapter 9 says something else. Chapter 9 seems to indicate that those who embrace blood lineage are in the vessel prepared for wrath, and those who embrace faith are those prepared for glory.

I believe the "idea" that adherence to the Old Covenant law & ritualistic customs; and the "idea" that blood lineage demarcates the covenant people -- was the vessel prepared for destruction.

14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. (Ephesians 2:14-18)

The two men discussed are Jacob and Esau. These historical events had a deeper spiritual meaning, which is being revealed for the first time here, by Paul.

The LORD said to her,
"(A)Two nations are in your womb;
(B)And two peoples will be separated from your body;
And one people shall be stronger than the other;
And (C)the older shall serve the younger." (Genesis 25:23)

See also:

22For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Galatians 4:22-24)

Sara and Hagar, just as Jacob and Esau, represented two nations / covenants.

The "flesh" was always hostile to the "spirit" (in this way, strangely, it serves the spirit).

As it was written the older (old covenant or nation) will serve the younger (spiritual Israel, or children of the promise, first represented by Isaac then Jacob & now Christ).

As explained in Romans 11, they are enemies of the Gospel for our sake.

In other words God's righteousness and faithfulness exceeds all expectations. In accordance with His justice and mercy He afforded the spirits in prison from before the flood another opportunity at redemption. Even though it was they who were wicked God still required that they have a fair chance, which apparently they never had because they were left with no law, no Savior, and no patriarchs. In the same way perhaps God still will be faithful to His promises to the Jewish forefathers, even though those promises were erroneously construed by the Jewish people. He does so because He designed them to be wrongfully construed by them; thus in accordance with basic fairness He won't punish them for merely being unwitting pawns in His plan, so to speak?

That just doesn't resonate with the potter and vessels analogy from chapter 9.

Michael

I agree it does appear to be inconsistent, however, the force of Paul's words in Romans 11 is unavoidable and does create tension that needs to be resolved.

If God's design was that they (the Jewish people) would remain hardened; and in this way "the older serves the younger" .... it might make sense that God will ultimately turn around and save the Jewish people when the "fullness of the Gentiles" are grafted in?

[themuzicman]

You see, I don't think Romans 9 is about Jacob and Easu. Paul is using them as an analogy, representing the children of flesh and children of promise.

It's history repeating itself. Now, fleshly Israel has taken the role of Esau, and the children of the promise have taken on the role of Esau. Old Covenant and New Covenant. Paul is drawing on how this worked in the past to represent how these two covenants, and the division in Israel between flesh and promise, is going to work.

And the claim by the Jews is "who resists His will?" Yes, Israel was blinded. But Paul's follow up point is that God may prepare pots for wrath, referring to blinded Israel, stuck in the Old Covenant, and enlightened Israel, children of the promise, prepared for glory.

And I think Paul makes the point that the Jewish people are saved corporately, just as they were in the times of Elijah, (and in the return from exile), through the remnant.

And I keep coming back to 11:25-26, where "in this way" appears to refer to jealousy through the coming in of the Gentiles.

Michael

[bridgeforsale]

You see, I don't think Romans 9 is about Jacob and Easu. Paul is using them as an analogy, representing the children of flesh and children of promise.

I agree?

It's history repeating itself. Now, fleshly Israel has taken the role of Esau, and the children of the promise have taken on the role of Esau. Old Covenant and New Covenant. Paul is drawing on how this worked in the past to represent how these two covenants, and the division in Israel between flesh and promise, is going to work.

And the claim by the Jews is "who resists His will?" Yes, Israel was blinded. But Paul's follow up point is that God may prepare pots for wrath, referring to blinded Israel, stuck in the Old Covenant, and enlightened Israel, children of the promise, prepared for glory.

Again, I agree

And I think Paul makes the point that the Jewish people are saved corporately, just as they were in the times of Elijah, (and in the return from exile), through the remnant.

And I keep coming back to 11:25-26, where "in this way" appears to refer to jealousy through the coming in of the Gentiles.

Michael

I think Paul's central point in Romans 9 is to show the Jewish people why the Old Testament never promised it was blood lineage, which demarcated the covenant people of God.

The Jews felt the word of God must fail if all Jews weren't saved. However, Paul is showing not all are Israel who descended from Abraham. It was through the promise that his seed is counted.

That promise was sealed by faith. Thus, Paul is revealing that works devoid of faith was never the path toward righteousness.


AW

[themuzicman]

I think Paul's central point in Romans 9 is to show the Jewish people why the Old Testament never promised it was blood lineage, which demarcated the covenant people of God.

I disagree wholeheartedly. If you read the establishment of the Old Covenant, you see that it is made with Israel and their children, and God expected subsequent generations to hold to it. I think this is part of how Israel was blinded. The intent was to send a Messiah that they would crucify. They were patiently prepared as the vessels of wrath. If you read the OT, you see that in Malachi, the people are already breaking the covenant in post-exile.

The Jews felt the word of God must fail if all Jews weren't saved. However, Paul is showing not all are Israel who descended from Abraham. It was through the promise that his seed is counted.

That promise was sealed by faith. Thus, Paul is revealing that works devoid of faith was never the path toward righteousness.

Again, the point of the potter example is to show that God is just even if He brings wrath upon His people Israel. In saving a remnant, God has kept His promises to Israel, by preparing a remnant who are for glory. And that's the point of the opening of Romans 11: A remnant is all that is required.

Paul, then, says that part of his zealousness for preaching to Gentiles is the Jews that will be saved through jealousy of them, and that once the fullness of the gentiles has come in, that Jewish conversions will be complete, too.

Michael

[bridgeforsale]

I disagree wholeheartedly. If you read the establishment of the Old Covenant, you see that it is made with Israel and their children, and God expected subsequent generations to hold to it. I think this is part of how Israel was blinded. The intent was to send a Messiah that they would crucify. They were patiently prepared as the vessels of wrath. If you read the OT, you see that in Malachi, the people are already breaking the covenant in post-exile.

Interesting analysis. Certainly great importance was placed on blood lineage throughout the OT; so your point is well taken. However, it seems like Paul is revealing that "spiritual Israel" was the Israel God always intended to save (not flesh Israel). Flesh Israel was the vessel prepared for destruction (so I think we might agree here). I also agree that they were patiently prepared as the vessels of wrath so they would crucify Christ.

But Jacob and Esau were historical figures who had a spiritual significance (as did Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Sara, and Hagar). These individuals all had a purpose beyond what was stated to them early on in Genesis, which I think Paul reveals for the first time in the NT.

Again, the point of the potter example is to show that God is just even if He brings wrath upon His people Israel. In saving a remnant, God has kept His promises to Israel, by preparing a remnant who are for glory. And that's the point of the opening of Romans 11: A remnant is all that is required.

Paul, then, says that part of his zealousness for preaching to Gentiles is the Jews that will be saved through jealousy of them, and that once the fullness of the gentiles has come in, that Jewish conversions will be complete, too.

Michael

Certainly a reasonable view. I do also think it's possible that Paul's opening and closing in chap. 11 discuss the past/present and future respectively.

[themuzicman]

Interesting analysis. Certainly great importance was placed on blood lineage throughout the OT; so your point is well taken. However, it seems like Paul is revealing that "spiritual Israel" was the Israel God always intended to save (not flesh Israel). Flesh Israel was the vessel prepared for destruction (so I think we might agree here). I also agree that they were patiently prepared as the vessels of wrath so they would crucify Christ.

But Jacob and Esau were historical figures who had a spiritual significance (as did Abraham, Isaac, Rebekah, Sara, and Hagar). These individuals all had a purpose beyond what was stated to them early on in Genesis, which I think Paul reveals for the first time in the NT.

Here's the part that most folks miss. The reference Paul uses is referring to the nations of Israel and Edom, and not Jacob and Esau directly. See Malachi 1.

Certainly a reasonable view. I do also think it's possible that Paul's opening and closing in chap. 11 discuss the past/present and future respectively.

I guess I just don't see time in Chapter 11.

Michael

[FREE]

I agree it does appear to be inconsistent, however, the force of Paul's words in Romans 11 is unavoidable and does create tension that needs to be resolved.

If God's design was that they (the Jewish people) would remain hardened; and in this way "the older serves the younger" .... it might make sense that God will ultimately turn around and save the Jewish people when the "fullness of the Gentiles" are grafted in?

Romans 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Could this simply mean that even though they are enemies, they are still loved. And since they are still loved the gifts and call are irrevocable. Meaning, don't stop loving them and preaching to them! If we were to read that only the remnant were to be saved and the hardened/blinded part of the Jews were no longer loved by God, then we would never even try to reach them. Paul, on the other hand says that these are the very ones he is trying to arouse and save! (Rom 11 verse 11 & 14).

So in addition to Paul saying that Jews are not castaway because he was one himself (Rom 11:1) and because there have been a remnant chosen by grace (verse 5), he is also saying that those who were blinded still have hope! God's gifts and calling are irrevocable! That does not mean they will be saved because they have Jewish roots, it does mean that God's calling is still to them, God's calling to repentance.

Does that make any sense? Paul doesn't want us to get the idea that because of the strong things he's said against the Jews in Romans 9-11 that the hardened portion are unreachable at all. They can be aroused by envy of the Gentiles being saved.