FEATURED MINISTRY ARTICLE: By JP Holding

[4thdensity]

In reading your assessment of the "self-esteem" issue. I think the question has more to do with identity and purpose and our difficulty in relating with that aspect of our lives.
We are inundated with choices in how to manage lives; which in reality is a good thing, although some get lost and paralyzed in the forest of choices.
The ancients felt more of a sense of community and their place in the community than we do now.
But today we have more opportunity to express our god-given talents and insights than any other time in history.
Conversely we listen to a mass-media that dictates to us what success looks like and almost imposes into our consciousness how we should feel about ourselves.
I believe when we begin to detach from being dictated to by the media and start expressing our native intelligences and unique expressions then we as a society will feel better about ourselves and each other.

The self esteem movement is real and neccessary. It's about self empowerment and regaining our abilties to think on our own and lead our lives as expressions of God.
Immersing our identites in others is co-dependent and mentally unhealthy, it's self-subjagation. We can identify with our family, friends and others without suppressing who we are individually.
When one can accomplish that then one can truly know who one is...
Self-esteem=identity

[jpholding]

You win a Platinum Screwballl nomination for that self-centered, egomaniacal, provincialist diatribe which didn't address a word I said.

But this is what really wins it for you:

Immersing our identites in others is co-dependent and mentally unhealthy, it's self-subjagation

Great. So collectivist societies (eg, 99.99999% of people who have ever lived) are mentally unhealthy. Wonderful.

Got any more bigoted commentary to offer, or are you ready for your white sheet now?

Come see me in my section here on TWeb so we can all get a good long laugh out of you.

[4thdensity]

JPHolding ...
Your response to my reply was juvenile to say the least.
How old are you anyway ?
Is that why you post here so you can childishly attempt to ridicule others opinions....
That says a lot about you, you seem insecure in your beliefs...you seem bombastic and pompous.

Read my reply again and try and keep what I said in context...
Seems odd you ignored this point of mine:
" We can identify with our family, friends and others without suppressing who we are individually."

Your reply wasn't christian or rational...
It figures though...A christian apologist is against self-esteem...that's too funny.

Wouldn't your "collective" of people with low self-esteem and no sense of their individuality be depressing and easily conquered ?
Or do you worship the Borg collective ?
Hey I'm just asking....


4thdensity

[4thdensity]

By the way...JPHolding you offered....
"Got any more bigoted commentary to offer, or are you ready for your white sheet now?

"Come see me in my section here on TWeb so we can all get a good long laugh out of you". [/QUOTE]

Please direct me there...I'll gladly school ya'...

4thdensity

[jpholding]

JPHolding ...
Your response to my reply was juvenile to say the least.

I figure I had to adjust to my respondent. Your views are that of a child, after all. That was sociology by a three year old you offered.

That says a lot about you, you seem insecure in your beliefs...you seem bombastic and pompous.

It says a lot about you that you use that as an excuse. You must be insecure and have an ego complex.

Read my reply again and try and keep what I said in context...

"Context" is an all-purpose excuse for being caught in what you plainly said and being found wrong/

Seems odd you ignored this point of mine:

It wasn't worth two cents and didn't have a thing to do with anything I said. Too bad your ego can't stand being ignored.

Your reply wasn't christian or rational...

It was both -- very readily. Sorry about your persecution complex and your poor scholarship.

It figures though...A christian apologist is against self-esteem...that's too funny.

Someone like you is for egomania....that's all too appropos.

Wouldn't your "collective" of people with low self-esteem and no sense of their individuality be depressing and easily conquered ?

That wins you another Screwball Award!

Hey I'm just asking....

Nah...you're just stupid. Try some readings in cross-cultural anthropology for a change....it may open your mind some....you know, get you out of that Grand Dragon mentality. Hurry up, you can burn that cross later....

Please direct me there...I'll gladly school ya'...

If U R 2 dumb to find it.....

...U R 2 dumb to come play with us.

[4thdensity]

YAWN!
JP you're just a another blowhard that can't stand to have his views challenged.
All you offer is childish mendacious replies to any differing viewpoints. You're a wannabe that never was.

You're flailing around here trying to distract from the fact that you have no basis for your disdain of the "self-esteem" movement; other than you just don't understand it.
And we all know that people like you despise what they don't understand.

So have at it here with your mentally masturbatory self-aggrandizing nonsense.
You write like a buffoon and think like a lemming.

Peace...call us when you wake-up...

[jpholding]

YAWN!
JP you're just a another blowhard that can't stand to have his views challenged.

YAWN....you're just another loudmouth with no relevant answers who hides under the security blanket of diversity when you get called down for your errors....

You're flailing around here trying to distract from the fact that you have no basis for your disdain of the "self-esteem" movement; other than you just don't understand it.

"You don't understand" is another excuse of those caught in error....YAWN....it's not hard to understand, and not hard to find reasons for disdain....you're another one. The "self-esteem" movement has produced a generation of egomaniacs who think they're special and that everyone should bow down to their slightest whim. It has produced dimwits who think they're instant experts on any subject of interest and that by mere virtue of having an opinion, they deserve to be heard and given credence with those who earn their way with a serious education. "Self-esteem" has produced self-centered monsters who regard marriage and children as disposable upon the slightest stubbing of the toe.

You write like a buffoon and think like a lemming..

You're a red herring and you smell of elderberries. YAWN. YAWN. C'mon, do come over and entertain us in the Tektonics section. We haven't broken -- er, played with -- a good toy in a few weeks now...

[4thdensity]

[QUOTE=jpholding;2368661]"YAWN....you're just another loudmouth with no relevant answers who hides under the security blanket of diversity when you get called down for your errors...."

That reply there says volumes about you.
"security blanket of diversity"? what da'!...and "get called down for my 'errors"?

So what you're saying here is that my disagreement with you is my error ?
Your opinion is always right and anyone with a differing opinion is wrong to you ?
You sound like some kind of God on high...you proclaim something and everyone must concede or risk being pestered with your childish nonsense.

And please explain where did the "diversity" crack or my using diversity as a "security blanket" came from.
Or is that something you made up to distract from the fact that you feel attacked and threatened when someone opposes what you think ? That's just weak

You hide your ignorance with meaningless verbiage.
You're a bait and switch con artist that hasn't had an original thought since you soiled a diaper.

Your insecurites are showing.

[historic salve]

Don't you realize, 4thdensity, that JP's article has nothing to do with "mentally unhealthy" behavior? "[In the ancient Mediterranean world,] every person was understood to be embedded in others and had his or her identity only in relation to these others who formed this fundamental group. For most people, this was the family, and it meant that individuals neither acted nor thought of themselves as persons independent of the family group" (Social-Science Commentary on the Gospels 343). Of course, this does NOT mean that they shared some kind of "hive mind," or Borg consciousness, as you were so pleased to put it. It only means that individual-ism did not exist in the Mediterranean in Jesus' time or culture.

So this view of individuals being embedded in others has nothing to do with a mental illness. Don't you realize how insulting and ignorant it is to say that? How is JP supposed to take you seriously when you can't even read his article properly?

[4thdensity]

Historic salve,
I responded (reply #30) to this assesment by Matzat which JP slobbered all over...
"The personal identity of the apostle Paul was completely immersed in the person of Jesus Christ...Should not such glorious identity and victorious life meet the needs of this generation? "

My reply to which can be read in reply #30 stated that TODAY we lack the sense of community that inspired "immersing our personalites" in others"; today we're not as reliant on each other as we were in ancient times.

There are many that question the purpose of their existence.
Today it would be mentally co-dependent to immerse ourselves in another's persona or the collective's.
The self-esteem discipline seeks to find one's own self-worth so that worth can then be shared with others.
This isn't the ancient Mediterrean world...it's the 21st century global village
We can't find our Christ presence while immersing ourselves in others.
We can serve others, we can admire another's presence in our lives and hear another's truth...
but we must maintain our individuality while doing so.

In essense it's what Christ spoke about when he said
" know ye' not that ye' are gods"

The greatest spiritual work to be done is inside our own minds, to find our worth and purpose from the inside out...not to be told by another what we should feel or think or how to go about living.

When we become independently self-sufficient only then can one freely worship the Divine.
We'll do so of our own volition...not out of fear or the dominance of another person.

So to conclude...comparing living in today's world to living in the ancient world is a meaningless pastime. Nostalgic maybe...but intellectually corrupt.

4thdensity

[historic salve]

There are many that question the purpose of their existence.
Today it would be mentally co-dependent to immerse ourselves in another's persona or the collective's.

Your whole post is nonsense. As long as we're making up psychology, I declare that anyone who accuses other people of being mentally ill (esp. out of ignorance) is himself mentally ill.

This isn't the ancient Mediterrean world...it's the 21st century global village

Gosh, I didn't know that.

We can't find our Christ presence while immersing ourselves in others.

We don't have a "Christ presence." Keep your heresy out of this.

In essense it's what Christ spoke about when he said
" know ye' not that ye' are gods"

You're not interpreting that according to original intent.

When we become independently self-sufficient only then can one freely worship the Divine.

Tell that to the Apostles, none of whom bought your wishy-washy species of individualism.

So to conclude...comparing living in today's world to living in the ancient world is a meaningless pastime. Nostalgic maybe...but intellectually corrupt.

JP isn't saying we should return to having a collectivist personality. You need to bone up on your basic reading comprehension.

[jpholding]

YAWN...YAWN...YAWN....

That reply there says volumes about you.
"security blanket of diversity"? what da'!...and "get called down for my 'errors"?

That was about YOU, not me. It says volumes about YOU.

Can you actually argue facts instead of constantly retreating into wah wahs like these?

So what you're saying here is that my disagreement with you is my error ?
Your opinion is always right and anyone with a differing opinion is wrong to you ?

Blah blah blah blah....please. None of this is fixing your mistakes, or advancing any claim of fact. It's just you whining.

And please explain where did the "diversity" crack or my using diversity as a "security blanket" came from.

The words came from the English language. The description came from your behavior. Next dumb question?

Or is that something you made up to distract from the fact that you feel attacked and threatened when someone opposes what you think ?

Too late....that high ground of "you feel attacked or threatened" has already been ripped out from under you. As stupid as you are, you don't see that that particular manure-encrusted fan is easily and manually reversible. Watch:


You hide your ignorance with meaningless verbiage.

You're a bait and switch con artist that hasn't had an original thought since you soiled a diaper.

Your insecurites are showing.

See? I provided just as substantive an answer as you did!

HS is right -- you're too stupid to grasp what the article was about. But more on this racist pig commentary anyway:

My reply to which can be read in reply #30 stated that TODAY we lack the sense of community that inspired "immersing our personalites" in others"; today we're not as reliant on each other as we were in ancient times.

REALLY! No short, Sheerlock! You don't say! Some reply -- it corresponds to exactly what *I* said!

Today it would be mentally co-dependent to immerse ourselves in another's persona or the collective's.

1) Bigoted commentary, indocates that collecticist persons were "mentally co-dependent".
2) Corresponding to 1), fails to distinguish between an extreme form of dependency and natural collectivist thought.
3) "Collectives" is not a possessive. Now you need to learn sociology AND correct punctuation.

The self-esteem discipline seeks to find one's own self-worth so that worth can then be shared with others.

YAWN....that's an excuse the "self-esteem discipline" makes up for why it produces egomaniacs...."I'm just doing it to help others realize how wonderful I am so they can be helped by my awesomeness." Please. This is the kind of self-centeredness that needs a trip to the woodshed with switch in hand.

This isn't the ancient Mediterrean world...it's the 21st century global village

That must mean you're the village idiot!

We can't find our Christ presence while immersing ourselves in others.

Pffftt..."Christ presence"...another fantasy of the modern egotist....

We can serve others, we can admire another's presence in our lives and hear another's truth...but we must maintain our individuality while doing so.

Whatever the heck THAT was supposed to mean. Do you mind sharing some of that stuff you're smoking? Either way this has nothing to do with anything I wrote. And it also isn't what the "self-esteem discipline" (pffft) is actually producing anywhere. It's closer to collectivism.

In essense it's what Christ spoke about when he said
" know ye' not that ye' are gods"

BOGUS QUOTE ALERT! Try to get it right. It's in John 10, and it alludes back to Ps. 82:

34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Ps 82 said:

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

Forget those parts? The point in both cases is that Jesus alone has divine identity and deserves to be called by divine titles -- and Jesus' reply is a "gotcha" to his opponents who say he didn't. The point: If these wicked people were called "gods" then how much more does the REAL deal deserve the description?

The Mormons tried that crap too. Think you can come up with something a little better?

The greatest spiritual work to be done is inside our own minds, to find our worth and purpose from the inside out...not to be told by another what we should feel or think or how to go about living.

Ah, the Gospel of Hypocritical Egomania. Hey, goofy -- you're telling US what to think and how to live when you correct us! DUH!

When we become independently self-sufficient only then can one freely worship the Divine.
We'll do so of our own volition...not out of fear or the dominance of another person.

Oh great! Now collectivism = fear and domination! Keep up the good work, there, Bull Connor!

So to conclude...comparing living in today's world to living in the ancient world is a meaningless pastime. Nostalgic maybe...but intellectually corrupt.

[

Guess what, Grand Dragon? 70% of the modern world today is STILL collectivist in orientation...so sorry to weake you up, Uncle Whitey McSam, but you're not the apex of civilization...heck, you may be the Manure Shovel of Civillization, but that's about it....

What a dip. He's been inhaling too many paint fumes.

[4thdensity]

Historic Salve,
Speaking of being "immersed" in another's personality. You write eerily like JPHolding.

You say the same things in the same way.

Dismissing others thoughts and beliefs as "heresy" or "misinterpretations" according to your beliefs is small minded.

So you think that only your interpretation of the words of Christ are valid; you think only you have studied or meditated on them.
You think only you have the truth and anyone that sees things another way is wrong, in error or a heretic.

How fascist of you.
It's amazing that you have an issue with learning to love oneself and approaching the Divine with that appreciation.
We were formed in the image and likeness of God you know.
To love oneself is to love God...

But that doesn't fit your narrowminded fear based fake intellectual beliefs does it ?
But hey fascist is what fascist believes.

[historic salve]

Historic Salve,
Speaking of being "immersed" in another's personality. You write eerily like JPHolding.

You say the same things in the same way.

Dismissing others thoughts and beliefs as "heresy" or "misinterpretations" according to your beliefs is small minded.

So you think that only your interpretation of the words of Christ are valid; you think only you have studied or meditated on them.
You think only you have the truth and anyone that sees things another way is wrong, in error or a heretic.

How fascist of you.
It's amazing that you have an issue with learning to love oneself and approaching the Divine with that appreciation.
We were formed in the image and likeness of God you know.
To love oneself is to love God...

But that doesn't fit your narrowminded fear based fake intellectual beliefs does it ?
But hey fascist is what fascist believes.

It's obvious to me and (I think) the other readers of this discussion that you dropped the point about collectivist personality because you couldn't answer it. For all your complaints about the attitude we have here, you seem to like throwing out red herrings and ad hominem arguments.

[jpholding]

Historic Salve,
Speaking of being "immersed" in another's personality. You write eerily like JPHolding.

That's because we share two important traits:

1) We do our homework.
2) We don't put up with bovine excrement of the sort you perpetually produce.

Dismissing others thoughts and beliefs as "heresy" or "misinterpretations" according to your beliefs is small minded.

Whereas, it is much more appropos to resort to cliched responses like that one, right?

So you think that only your interpretation of the words of Christ are valid; you think only you have studied or meditated on them.
You think only you have the truth and anyone that sees things another way is wrong, in error or a heretic.

Instead of whining like this all the time, here's an idea:

1) Do some serious contextual study.
2) Show why we're wrong.

Oops...sorry. Didn't mean to strain your brain there.

We were formed in the image and likeness of God you know.

Wow, yet another Mormon misinterpretation! News flash: "Image and likeness" does not establish any sort of identity with God, but refers to the authority God delegated to humanity on earth. Try checking on the parallel uses of the words in other texts.

To love oneself is to love God...But that doesn't fit your narrowminded fear based fake intellectual beliefs does it ?

You bet. We're so narrow that we can't see that you're God.

It's not hard to smell the bad fruit that reckless "self-esteem" produces.