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Forum Rules: Here
This forum is open discussion between atheists and all theists to defend and debate their views on religion or non-religion. Please respect that this is a Christian-owned forum and refrain from gratuitous blasphemy. VERY wide leeway is given in range of expression and allowable behavior as compared to other areas of the forum, and moderation is not overly involved unless necessary. Please keep this in mind. Atheists who wish to interact with theists in a way that does not seek to undermine theistic faith may participate in the World Religions Department. Non-debate question and answers and mild and less confrontational discussions can take place in General Theistics.
Forum Rules: Here
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What was Paul's role in the history of Christianity?
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Originally posted by OingoBoingo View PostDoes the orthodox/catholic position maintain that the incarnation was temporary? The council of Chalcedon articulated the pre-Chalcedonian position that Jesus continues to be truly human and truly God after his resurrection, but that he is now embodied in glorified flesh rather than corruptible flesh.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI consider Paul is the most influential person in forming the theological foundation of 'Traditional Christianity' today. Paul was Hellenist Jew from outside Palestine. I will argue that Paul transformed Christianity into a Hellenist Roman religion. Let's go for it in Apologetics 301, where it belongs.
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Shunyadragon: with regards to your original argument: it posits that that Paul transforms an earlier Jewish Christianity to a Hellenistic Roman Christianity. So what sources do you plan to use for the Jewish Christianity? The Synoptics? Hebrews? James? Didache? Others? And likewise, what sources should be used for Pauline Christianity? The Pauline epistles? The so-called deutero-Pauline epistles? Acts?Last edited by Paprika; 03-04-2014, 11:58 AM.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostThat's not the issue at hand
The question is whether or to what extent Paul transformed Christianity to a Hellenistic Roman religion. If the Godness or humanness of Jesus is to be brought into the discussion, one would have to look at how Paul treated the nature of Jesus compared to other Christians of his day vis-a-vis Jewish conceptions of God and Hellenistic Roman conceptions of gods and demigods.
Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View PostTwo words. Glorified body.
Originally posted by seanD View PostI hope you understand that there are traces of theological doctrine and creeds about Christ within Paul's letters that scholars date much earlier than Paul. I'd like to see how you handle that. If you ask me what I'm talking about or deny that they exist then I'll know you don't have a clue what you're talking about.I'm not here anymore.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostI think the traces of theological doctrine and creeds is entirely the point. Their existence would have pre-dated Paul, but that doesn't preclude Paul from being the first or primary figure who combined them. In fact, at least half of the argument is that Paul drew from these existing traces which would otherwise not have been present in Christianity.
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Originally posted by Carrikature View PostWhat exactly does a glorified body entail, and where would such a conception have originated?
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Originally posted by CarrikatureWhat exactly does a glorified body entail, and where would such a conception have originated?
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Originally posted by seanD View PostI hope you understand that there are traces of theological doctrine and creeds about Christ within Paul's letters that scholars date much earlier than Paul. I'd like to see how you handle that. If you ask me what I'm talking about or deny that they exist then I'll know you don't have a clue what you're talking about.Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI do not try to deal with traces, they are too vague and nebulous.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostI missed that out. Yes, it is a major departure from second-Temple Judaic thought, but I would argue not incompatible. Also, for Christianity, you have God becoming flesh, whereas in the Greco Roman religions it tends to be the other way round, where men or demigods becoming gods. Whenever a god assumes the guise of a man it is always temporary.
Not so with all Greco Roman Gods. The primary Greek Gods emerged from Chaos with Gaia (the earth). Yes, at times Gods gave birth to humans, but most Gods were the offspring of Gods. The Trinity and Jesus as the incarnate 'Son of God' is indeed more compatible with the Greco Roman concept of God(s).Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by Paprika View PostShunyadragon: with regards to your original argument: it posits that that Paul transforms an earlier Jewish Christianity to a Hellenistic Roman Christianity. So what sources do you plan to use for the Jewish Christianity? The Synoptics? Hebrews? James? Didache? Others? And likewise, what sources should be used for Pauline Christianity? The Pauline epistles? The so-called deutero-Pauline epistles? Acts?Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:
go with the flow the river knows . . .
Frank
I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.
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Originally posted by shunyadragon View PostI will cite my sources one at a time, for the most part citing scholars with more knowledge of the scripture then I. My first argument is the concept of the Trinity and Jesus as the incarnate 'Son of God' is more in harmony with the Greco Roman concept of Gods then Judaism. The basis for the Trinity in the Torah and OT is nebulous and weak. In the debate between Craig and Rabbi Singer, Craig made no reference to the OT as justification for the Trinity, saying that 'simply on the basis of the Hebrew scriptures or Old Testament one would not have to believe God is a Trinity.'
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