Surah 9:30

[PandP]

Hello everyone.

I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up here before, so please forgive me if I have posted a redundant subject.

Since this is my first post at Theology web, I'm going to keep it simple.

Surah 9:30 says: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! "

As you can see from the bold font, the "Ezra part" is my main focus here.

Can any Muslem provide historical evidence that the Jews said that "Ezra is the son of Allah?"

Thanks.

[Narnian]

Surah 9:30 says: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! "
Thanks.

I am interested in hearing a reply to this as well. Probably you will not get one here. If you don't I suggest going to an islamic forum and asking for an explanation, as I'd like to hear it as well. Bring your results back here.

Personally, I think it's just one more MISTAKE in the Quran, and shows yet again that the Quran is an inferior man-made text.

[PandP]

I am interested in hearing a reply to this as well. Probably you will not get one here. If you don't I suggest going to an islamic forum and asking for an explanation, as I'd like to hear it as well. Bring your results back here.

Personally, I think it's just one more MISTAKE in the Quran, and shows yet again that the Quran is an inferior man-made text.

That's a good idea! I'll go check it out on there for sure!

Are there any that you would recommend?

[PandP]

I haven't found a sufficient answer to this.

[Narnian]

PandP,

If muslims can't answer, they pretend to be busy

I would try asking on this forum here; put your question in the "Quran and Hadith" section.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

If you don't get a good enough reply, try asking their advice for a good islamic forum.

Don't forget to bring us back your answers here! I look forward to hearing it.

[PandP]

PandP,

If muslims can't answer, they pretend to be busy

I would try asking on this forum here; put your question in the "Quran and Hadith" section.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/

If you don't get a good enough reply, try asking their advice for a good islamic forum.

Don't forget to bring us back your answers here! I look forward to hearing it.

I think I might have to!

How many Muslems normally post here?

[Narnian]

There's about 3 muslims who consistently post here.

[murphy]

Two references:

"The Islamic exegetes have mentioned that there existed a community of Jews in Yemen who considered Ezra as son of God. Hirschberg says in Encyclopaedia Judaica:
H Z Hirschberg proposed another assumption, based on the words of Ibn Hazm, namely, that the 'righteous who live in Yemen believed that 'Uzayr was indeed the son of Allah.' According to other Muslim sources, there were some Yemenite Jews who had converted to Islam who believed that Ezra was the messiah. For Muhammad, Ezra, the apostle (!) of messiah, can be seen in the same light as the Christian saw Jesus, the messiah, the son of Allah."

Hamdi Yazir writes in his Quran Interpretation:
"Among Jews, several made a similar statement. According to a narration, among Jewish rabbis Sellam bin Mishkem, Numan bin Awfa, Shas bin Kays, and Malik bin Sayf came to the messenger of Allah, made that statement."

There was a Jewish population around Madina, where Muhammad migrated and lived for 13 years unti his death. It may be their and other distant Arabian Jews (possibly in Yemen) belief that Uzeyr (Ezra) was son of G*d.

Also please know this, G*d (or say Jhwh) sounds "jealous" when it comes to His Oneness as described in Quran. He must be picking on opposing beliefs/views of even isolated small communities.

-Peace

[OneSizeFit]

I am interested in hearing a reply to this as well. Probably you will not get one here. If you don't I suggest going to an islamic forum and asking for an explanation, as I'd like to hear it as well. Bring your results back here.

Personally, I think it's just one more MISTAKE in the Quran, and shows yet again that the Quran is an inferior man-made text.

Or Muhammed was just relaying practices of some sort of mystical cabalistic sect? Enoch, Metatron, Melchizedek, & perhaps Ezra based on the merkavah ascent of 4 Ezra, were all seen as Messianic figures by certain Jewish communities. It is an odd verse, but may be based on some sort of reality.

[barnasha]

Usually Quran references things that happened around that time. - not necessarily dogmatic categorizations ("And the Jews (in Arabia) say", not "All Jews say")

[Bowman]

Hello everyone.

I'm not sure if this has ever been brought up here before, so please forgive me if I have posted a redundant subject.

Since this is my first post at Theology web, I'm going to keep it simple.

Surah 9:30 says: "And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they! "

As you can see from the bold font, the "Ezra part" is my main focus here.

Can any Muslem provide historical evidence that the Jews said that "Ezra is the son of Allah?"

Thanks.

Looking to the Arabic will clarify the original intent of this word and its context…

وقالت اليهود عزير ابن الله وقالت النصرى


المسيح ابن الله ذلك قولهم بأفوههم يضهءون


قول الذين كفروا من قبل قتلهم الله أنى يؤفكون

Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim yudahi-oona qawla allatheena kafaroo min qablu qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona

9.30 And they said the Jews flogged “allah's” Son with the utmost vehemence, and they said the Christians, The Messiah, “allah's” Son, this, their word with their mouths, they resemble Word whom they disbelieved from before, “allah”, he killed them, when they are turned away.


عزير= “AAuzayrun”

Noun. Ezra. Proper name of a prophet. He disciplined, chastised, corrected, or punished, him; meaning he did to him that which should turn him away, or back, from evil, or foul conduct. Hence, he inflicted upon him a beating, or flogging less than that prescribed by the law; or he beat, or flogged, him with the utmost vehemence. He aided or assisted him; and strengthened him. He aided him against his enemy, or enemies, by repelling that later. He treated him with reverence, veneration, respect, or honor. He abased him; rendered him abject, vile, despicable, or ignominious: thus it has two contrary significations.

عزير= “AAuzayrun” = he beat, or flogged, him with the utmost vehemence


It comes from the root “azar” (ayn-zay-ra), which means he prevented, hindered, withheld, or forbade, him; and turned him away, or back; from the thing; to prevent, turn away, reprehend, support, assist.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, p. 2034 - 2035
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 370 - 371
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 97
Concordance of the Koran, Gustav Flugel, p. 125

[barnasha]

the quran has a huge corpus of related history and documentation explaining things like this. I remember reading something indicating this was something said by jews in arabia during the quran's revelation.

why are you looking for this information from a muslim? the information is the same no matter whom it comes from.

[Bowman]

the quran has a huge corpus of related history and documentation explaining things like this. I remember reading something indicating this was something said by jews in arabia during the quran's revelation.

why are you looking for this information from a muslim? the information is the same no matter whom it comes from.

We are looking for cognizant readers of the Koran.

[ahmadj3]

Cognizant readers of the Qur'an? The majority of Muslims are cognizant of the Qur'aan. Not every Muslim is a scholar, but every Muslim has knowledge about the Qur'aan, and the deen of Islam.

[Bowman]

Cognizant readers of the Qur'an? The majority of Muslims are cognizant of the Qur'aan. Not every Muslim is a scholar, but every Muslim has knowledge about the Qur'aan, and the deen of Islam.

Being cognizant of the Koran is not the same as being cognizant of its contents, right brother...?