Questions about The Da Vinci Code

[faithymom]

If a relationship with another human being always makes you feel bad, insecure, unworthy. If what the other side in that relationship does is reinforce such feelings. Most of us would look at it as "unhealthy".

Blessed Be, Dur

Unless you were actively doing things that were wronging them, then the "unhealthy" aspect of the relationship would be you, who would be in denial about your responsibility for your actions and your obligations to the other.

A lot of times we 'feel' guilty because we are guilty. I'm not advocating manipulation, but if you have done something wrong and DON'T feel guilt about it, I believe you're called a sociopath...

[Durthorin]

Unless you were actively doing things that were wronging them, then the "unhealthy" aspect of the relationship would be you, who would be in denial about your responsibility for your actions and your obligations to the other.

A lot of times we 'feel' guilty because we are guilty. I'm not advocating manipulation, but if you have done something wrong and DON'T feel guilt about it, I believe you're called a sociopath...

Then you get into the concept of what is "wrong". As a Christian it is wrong not to honor and have faith in your Deity. Yet as a Pagan, I neither honor nor have faith in him. Nor do I feel any guilt concerning this. Therefore, Am I a sociopath? Or is it simply that we do not share a common concept with you. You speak of responsibility and obligation for example. I can tell you that your are responsible and can tell you that you have an obligation to do something. But that does not make it true. Because my responsibilities and obligations like my honor are defined by myself and my community and yours are defined by you and your community.

Yet, I have noted often Christians attempting conversion appealing to this very thing. You are doing wrong. You are feeling bad because you are doing wrong. An if you accept our Faith, you will feel good. As a Pagan Priest I have have spent many hours picking up the wreckage of human beings placed in a situation where they accept your faith and don't feel better and blame that on themselves as being unworthy of grace. It becomes a lot like consoling someone coming out of an abusive relationship.


Blessed Be, Dur

[TomSki]

As a Pagan Priest I have have spent many hours picking up the wreckage of human beings placed in a situation where they accept your faith and don't feel better and blame that on themselves as being unworthy of grace. It becomes a lot like consoling someone coming out of an abusive relationship.


Blessed Be, Dur

A tough thing it must be, coddling the egos of a bunch of people who reject the idea of being sinful?

[shadowmaster]

But the argument starts with the assumption of a deity (the devil) that does not exist in my theology nor belief structure.

"The Devil's deepest wile is to persuade us that he does not exist". - Baudelaire.



You fell for it?

[faithymom]

Then you get into the concept of what is "wrong". As a Christian it is wrong not to honor and have faith in your Deity.

No, as a human it is wrong to ignore your creator.

Yet as a Pagan, I neither honor nor have faith in him. Nor do I feel any guilt concerning this. Therefore, Am I a sociopath?

I wasn't calling you a sociopath, I was merely asserting that the feeling of guilt is not always a bad or wrong thing.

Or is it simply that we do not share a common concept with you. You speak of responsibility and obligation for example. I can tell you that your are responsible and can tell you that you have an obligation to do something. But that does not make it true. Because my responsibilities and obligations like my honor are defined by myself and my community and yours are defined by you and your community.

But there is an absolute outside truth of both of us.

Yet, I have noted often Christians attempting conversion appealing to this very thing. You are doing wrong. You are feeling bad because you are doing wrong. An if you accept our Faith, you will feel good.

I find emotional appeals as basis for 'conversion' to be ridiculous, though I know it is common.
I did not become a Christian because it "feels good". I am a Christian because it is true.
Truth is truth no matter how it makes me feel.
Error is error no matter how it makes me feel.
I think that sometimes it would feel very good to do a lot of things that are wrong.
"It made me feel good" is not a valid excuse for doing things that are wrong.

As a Pagan Priest I have have spent many hours picking up the wreckage of human beings placed in a situation where they accept your faith and don't feel better and blame that on themselves as being unworthy of grace. It becomes a lot like consoling someone coming out of an abusive relationship.


Blessed Be, Dur

How very sad. I don't want to in any way belittle the experiences or pain of these people, but I think that they do not have a proper view of 'grace'
Grace is given because we ARE unworthy. If we were given 'grace' based on being worthy of it, then it wouldn't be grace!

[Durthorin]

A tough thing it must be, coddling the egos of a bunch of people who reject the idea of being sinful?

A tough thing trying to counsel someone that believes they are unworthy of life because even god will not help them.

[Durthorin]

"The Devil's deepest wile is to persuade us that he does not exist". - Baudelaire.



You fell for it?

As a Christian, I'm sure you believe that. I wish you well in that belief.

[Durthorin]

No, as a human it is wrong to ignore your creator.

I wasn't calling you a sociopath, I was merely asserting that the feeling of guilt is not always a bad or wrong thing.

Guilt at its bottom is essentially self directed anger or hatred. It is never a good thing except in the way that pain is. It directs you to look at a wound. At the point you have to decide to fix the reason for it. Often a lot of guilt is about things we could not have controlled often with no rational basis. Once one knows "why" you feel guilty, then you can attempt to fix it..

But there is an absolute outside truth of both of us.

That is one world view.

I find emotional appeals as basis for 'conversion' to be ridiculous, though I know it is common.
I did not become a Christian because it "feels good". I am a Christian because it is true.
Truth is truth no matter how it makes me feel.
Error is error no matter how it makes me feel.
I think that sometimes it would feel very good to do a lot of things that are wrong.
"It made me feel good" is not a valid excuse for doing things that are wrong.

How very sad. I don't want to in any way belittle the experiences or pain of these people, but I think that they do not have a proper view of 'grace'
Grace is given because we ARE unworthy. If we were given 'grace' based on being worthy of it, then it wouldn't be grace!

The unfortunate problem is some of your co-religionists "sell" Christianity to some broken people as the "cure" for things that frankly nothing is going to cure. When that cure does not work, well the reaction from a person already crushed is hopeless despair. In some of those cases I end up doing triage and talking with them, getting them medical help in some cases and in some cases convincing them they just dealt with the "wrong" sort of Christians. If you guys know its common can I ask why you don't beat them over the head with a wiffle bat and make them stop it?

[TomSki]

A tough thing trying to counsel someone that believes they are unworthy of life because even god will not help them.

With all due respect, you are either a liar or you do not know what you are talking about (2 Peter 3:15-16):

Exodus 34:6-7 "...The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Psalms 86:15 "But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth."

Psalms 103:8-14 "The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust."

Psalms 111:4-5 "the Lord is gracious and full of compassion. He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant."

Psalms 116:5-6 "Gracious is the Lord, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. The Lord preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me."

...and too many other verses to print - I suppose it would be easier for you to go back and read the Bible for yourself.

[Durthorin]

With all due respect, you are either a liar or you do not know what you are talking about (2 Peter 3:15-16):

Exodus 34:6-7 "...The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation."

Psalms 86:15 "But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth."

Psalms 103:8-14 "The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy. He will not always chide: neither will he keep his anger for ever. He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. For as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is his mercy toward them that fear him. As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us. Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust."

Psalms 111:4-5 "the Lord is gracious and full of compassion. He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant."

Psalms 116:5-6 "Gracious is the Lord, and righteous; yea, our God is merciful. The Lord preserveth the simple: I was brought low, and he helped me."

...and too many other verses to print - I suppose it would be easier for you to go back and read the Bible for yourself.

With all due respect. When your co-religionists convince someone to accept Christ as a cure all for everything from childhood sexual abuse, drugs or mental illness. Convince that person if they really truly believe that the weight they carry will be lifted from them. Then when they do accept Christ keep telling them they just have to pray harder, what they end up doing since none of those things go away easily is create the people I have had to deal with. You can quote your book at me all you like, I used to teach it when I was a Sunday school teacher. But what you have is a disconnect between members of your faith quoting scripture "at" people who need real help.. and getting down in the dirt and giving it. An truth be told I know more than a few members of your faith willing to work at helping people. I've sent more than one person to them. I have also to my annoyance had to deal with the result of those who are more interested in how many people they brought to Jesus as opposed to making one life truly better.

[TomSki]

With all due respect. When your co-religionists convince someone to accept Christ as a cure all for everything from childhood sexual abuse, drugs or mental illness. Convince that person if they really truly believe that the weight they carry will be lifted from them. Then when they do accept Christ keep telling them they just have to pray harder, what they end up doing since none of those things go away easily is create the people I have had to deal with. You can quote your book at me all you like, I used to teach it when I was a Sunday school teacher. But what you have is a disconnect between members of your faith quoting scripture "at" people who need real help.. and getting down in the dirt and giving it. An truth be told I know more than a few members of your faith willing to work at helping people. I've sent more than one person to them. I have also to my annoyance had to deal with the result of those who are more interested in how many people they brought to Jesus as opposed to making one life truly better.

Through Jesus we have relationship with God - it's the relationship that helps men deal with the reality of their past and move on into the future with hope. There is no "cure all" for the consequences of sin, but Christ teaches that sin has consequences. And the Wiccan Rede? "An it harm none, do as thou wilt." - an impossible and wicked law, all sin does harm.

I don't know what kind of Sunday school you taught, but if it brought you where you are now, it was full of your own ignorance.

[shadowmaster]

As a Christian, I'm sure you believe that. I wish you well in that belief.

Shadowmaster quotes others because he is not smart enough to have firm beliefs.

He liked to quote LGM but he left.

Say something brilliant for shadowmaster's signature.

[interrapax]

But the argument starts with the assumption of a deity (the devil) that does not exist in my theology nor belief structure. No one is immune from manipulation. A central methodology of Christianity is based on manipulating feelings of guilt, fear and insecurity as an example.

My faith does not have those as foundational elements. One does not follow the Gods out of guilt, nor does one fear them.. nor is one insecure in ones relationship with them. An that speaks to the nature of that relationship. If a relationship with another human being always makes you feel bad, insecure, unworthy. If what the other side in that relationship does is reinforce such feelings. Most of us would look at it as "unhealthy".

Blessed Be, Dur

I just have to state that you did not answer the question even remotely.

And too comment on your post. Sorry if you have experienced an unhealthy relationship with God, but can't say i agree with you that believing in God makes me feel bad.

You talk of belief structure and theology? can you show me this structurized theology? i'm most curious too see how you combine the different aspects of your faith. Since most Neo pagans i've met have no structure or systemized theology.

Neo paganism, wicca are but consequenses of the churchs failure to address the modern humans spiritual needs. Mind i am not saying the message if faulted, but i am saying that the way the message is brought about, and the way alot of church life is organized totally misses the needs of alot of believers.

Guilt at its bottom is essentially self directed anger or hatred. It is never a good thing except in the way that pain is. It directs you to look at a wound. At the point you have to decide to fix the reason for it. Often a lot of guilt is about things we could not have controlled often with no rational basis. Once one knows "why" you feel guilty, then you can attempt to fix it..

Actually guilt is also a judicial term, the fact of having committed a breach of conduct especially violating law and involving a penalty, the state of one who has committed an offense especially consciously. Some evolutionary phychologists like Stefano Pallanti, regard the feeling of guilt as totally necesary to human survival, basicly because if one feels guilt over an offense, then one is less likely to repeat it. To argue that guilt is never good, is naiv, and not to say destructiv.

I agree however, that feeling guilt over offences one has not commited is never a good thing.

I would also add that i feel sorry for those people you've talked too who "believe they are unworthy of life because even god will not help them." I've mett some in the same situation, in most cases from churches that preach the "prosperity gospel". I'll go so far as too say that those who come too this belief (and i'm going out on a limb here) have either been in contact with distorted christian teachings, or the problem has root in underlying emotional issues.

I truely do not see what is harmfull of teaching that all sin is forgiven through Jesus on the cross.
Neither do i see the harm in a realistic view of humanity.

I do however for eksample see the harm in preaching: "do not feel guilt", or "yeah, humans are super, we're just the most loving bunch arent we, humanity has the power in itself to be kind and loving all the time" (humanethic view of humanity) first of all, the first " " is bogus, the second " " would leave me with the self hatred you talk about, seing as the view tells me that everyone can do, except me (+ it's so far from reality as "far out" gets...

+ Life isnt all about "feelgood".




Love Pax.

[shadowmaster]

With all due respect. When your co-religionists convince someone to accept Christ as a cure all for everything from childhood sexual abuse, drugs or mental illness. Convince that person if they really truly believe that the weight they carry will be lifted from them. Then when they do accept Christ keep telling them they just have to pray harder, what they end up doing since none of those things go away easily is create the people I have had to deal with. You can quote your book at me all you like, I used to teach it when I was a Sunday school teacher. But what you have is a disconnect between members of your faith quoting scripture "at" people who need real help.. and getting down in the dirt and giving it. An truth be told I know more than a few members of your faith willing to work at helping people. I've sent more than one person to them. I have also to my annoyance had to deal with the result of those who are more interested in how many people they brought to Jesus as opposed to making one life truly better.

Shadowmaster is curious about Wiccan beliefs.
Is the presentation in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#Beliefs more or less correct?
Do Wiccans generally practice "magic"?

SM

[Durthorin]

Shadowmaster is curious about Wiccan beliefs.
Is the presentation in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wicca#Beliefs more or less correct?
Do Wiccans generally practice "magic"?

SM

In general its correct. Most Wiccans do practice magic, we often refer to it as "prayer with props".