A thread to help M.Talkinsworth transition to a superstition free lifestyle

[LGM]

Matt,

Feel free to use this thread to ask any Tweb naturalists questions about their experiences in transitioning from organized superstitious religions, and specifically Christianity, to naturalism, and where to seek out additional information and resources.

[M.Talkingsworth]

Matt,

Feel free to use this thread to ask any Tweb naturalists questions about their experiences in transitioning from organized superstitious religions, and specifically Christianity, to naturalism, and where to seek out additional information and resources.

Thanks LGM.

I guess the hardest part is that there is a large part of me that wants back in. This is completely due to peer pressure. As I have stated in other places, it is very difficult for me to be perceived as wrong, evil, deceived, and bad for simply admitting how I feel and what I see. Truly, I feel like Galileo must have felt when he was forced to recant for discovering the truth about the solar system, except that no one has shown me the gallows. Thank science for the separation of church and state!

I actually don't know if there is anything anyone can do or say to help. I like my friends, but because our basic worldviews diverge so greatly now, it is like there is this undertone of dissonance between us all. I don't know if that can ever be overcome. I don't know how my wife will feel about me meeting with other people who feel this way. One time I mentioned that since I go to church with her, she should go to an atheist conference with me. She was not amused.

What a rip-off! I was born into this made up way of thinking, brainwashed my whole life, and now when I finally figured out the answer to all the christian riddles and puzzles, no one wants to hear the right answer! What a jip.

It's like winning the lottery and discovering that the jackpot is social isolation. I really miss discussing theology with my family. It was what I *did*. I was good at it. I had a good mind for verses and ideas (at least I thought I did) and I could reason through ideas and come up with neat conclusions.

Now I can't talk theology because no one wants to hear what I have to say. Not that I have tried. I am assuming. But I think I'm right.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is there a pill I can take that will get me out of the matrix?

thanks,

Matt

[M.Talkingsworth]

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[LGM]

Thanks LGM.

I guess the hardest part is that there is a large part of me that wants back in. This is completely due to peer pressure.

Yes. That's completely normal. Religion is a tribal cultural institution built on our desires to feel like we are part of something special and important. Peer pressure and group think play very important roles in maintaining the dynamic of superstitious religions and cults.

As I have stated in other places, it is very difficult for me to be perceived as wrong, evil, deceived, and bad for simply admitting how I feel and what I see. Truly, I feel like Galileo must have felt when he was forced to recant for discovering the truth about the solar system, except that no one has shown me the gallows. Thank science for the separation of church and state!

Yes. We live in a very lucky age and society. There have always been non-believers and skeptics, and you can just imagine how much more difficult their situation was during theocratic Christian rule and persecution. The same is no doubt true in the current Islamic theocracies like Iran and Saudia Arabia. Imagine the repercussion in those countries for announcing you don’t believe in Allah or that Mohammed’s authority to speak for any gods.

I actually don't know if there is anything anyone can do or say to help. I like my friends, but because our basic worldviews diverge so greatly now, it is like there is this undertone of dissonance between us all.

It sounds like you have already shared your deconversion and skepticism with your Christian friends. I would tell people that this is a mistake. It is best not to share this type of information with people unless your friendship is not one that originated around the church and your common religion. Telling people you reject some or all of their sacred beliefs, that they thought you held in common, is very threatening to many people. When you are part of a cult that is built around the concept that blind faith in its theology is virtuous, and that skepticism and doubts are a sign of weakness and evil, then when you express the latter, you will immediately be viewed as dangerous by people who are the former.

But as you say, be thankful that now you will at worst be shunned and disrespected by these people, and not stoned to death as the bible commands, or burnt at the stake as Giordano Bruno was.

I don't know if that can ever be overcome. I don't know how my wife will feel about me meeting with other people who feel this way. One time I mentioned that since I go to church with her, she should go to an atheist conference with me. She was not amused.

Thankfully my wife pretty much deconverted about the same time I did, having witnessed the same egregious bigotry and hypocrisy that was taking place at our church at the time.

One thing you have to surrender, is the idea that you are going to find an ‘atheist’ church or organization that will fill the void of a Christian church and rituals in your life. Organized atheism is an oxymoron, and is akin to organized people who don’t believe in ghosts.

You can certainly become part of a humanist organization, or a Unitarian church, but perhaps it would be better to just grit your teeth and keep attending church with your wife. Unfortunately, your minister sounds like a fundy. I at least went to a fairly liberal Methodist church, so I wasn’t getting barraged with fire and brimstone nonsense or anti-evolution rants from the pulpit.

What a rip-off! I was born into this made up way of thinking, brainwashed my whole life, and now when I finally figured out the answer to all the christian riddles and puzzles, no one wants to hear the right answer! What a jip.

Well, that is EXACTLY what Tweb is for. Take out all your frustations here in the safety of relative strangers who you don’t have to sit next to in a pew or make smalltalk with at a barbecue.

It's like winning the lottery and discovering that the jackpot is social isolation. I really miss discussing theology with my family. It was what I *did*. I was good at it. I had a good mind for verses and ideas (at least I thought I did) and I could reason through ideas and come up with neat conclusions.

Now I can't talk theology because no one wants to hear what I have to say. Not that I have tried. I am assuming. But I think I'm right.

Well, discretion is probably the right course there. Again, I have a very devout mother-in-law, who I love very much, she is aware of my deconversion, but we would never discuss theology. It simply doesn’t come up.

My younger son is a hardcore skeptic and atheist, so we occasionally discuss something related to religion, especially if it’s related to politics.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Is there a pill I can take that will get me out of the matrix?

My suggestion is to tread lightly in your real life with people you know your views will offend. And continue to use TWeb, and possibly other more atheist oriented forums, like IIDB, to fulfill your desire to discuss theology.
I would recommend you avail yourself of the infidels library.

There is a wealth of great free literature from like minded atheists and skeptics.

I would recommend Richard Carrier for a modern author, especially his essay on ‘Why I am not a Christian’. In it, he identifies the 4 major reasons many people reject Christianity after examining it. I think you will find his ideas probably mirror yours.

You should also read some the great essays written by Robert Green Ingersoll.

[LGM]

Hey LGM,
I really appreciate your posts. Sometimes ridicule is the only response to some of the mindless things people say out there.

Thanks.

Ridiculing and mocking pretentious self righteousness and inane theological blather is what I do.

And you're right, so much of what theists, and especially a certain breed of apologists you'll find posting here say are simply mindless derivative prattle. They see or read someone else say something, and they learn to imitate it, often without even considering what it means.

Again, it's all part of the group think that helps to rationalize the most incoherent claims of superstitious theologies.

One amusing thing you will now be treated to, is that now that you are no longer a card carrying Christian, you will no longer REALLY understand the bible. Understanding the bible is a magical feat it seems that can only be performed by the faithful.

Truly amazing. It's like they can't hear themselves! Anyway, it's good to have you around.

Thanks again.

As you can obviously tell, there are many times when I'm not the least bit serious on these boards, and it's pretty hilarious when I'm being taken that way by certain posters who sarcasm and parody impaired.

If everyone in the world took their religious beliefs and themselves less seriously, the world would be a much a much more relaxed place.

[M.Talkingsworth]

Thanks.

Ridiculing and mocking pretentious self righteousness and inane theological blather is what I do.

And you're right, so much of what theists, and especially a certain breed of apologists you'll find posting here say are simply mindless derivative prattle. They see or read someone else say something, and they learn to imitate it, often without even considering what it means.

Again, it's all part of the group think that helps to rationalize the most incoherent claims of superstitious theologies.

One amusing thing you will now be treated to, is that now that you are no longer a card carrying Christian, you will no longer REALLY understand the bible. Understanding the bible is a magical feat it seems that can only be performed by the faithful.



Thanks again.

As you can obviously tell, there are many times when I'm not the least bit serious on these boards, and it's pretty hilarious when I'm being taken that way by certain posters who sarcasm and parody impaired.

If everyone in the world took their religious beliefs and themselves less seriously, the world would be a much a much more relaxed place.

Thanks. Lots of good advice. I am a incurable loudmouth, so keeping things to myself is a challenge, but I think it would be wise to do so in this case.

I was pondering my deconversion in the shower (I think that warm water helps people think...and going to the bathroom too... probably has to do with bloodflow....) and I realized that part of my problem is that even though I am not religious anymore I still define myself in terms of religion, because that is what I did my whole life. I defined myself in terms of Christianity, now I am starting to define myself in terms of not believing Christianity.

It seems to me that this is not a healthy thing to do, and I am going to start defining myself differently and I think that will help.

Cheers,

Matt

[LGM]

I was pondering my deconversion in the shower (I think that warm water helps people think...and going to the bathroom too... probably has to do with bloodflow....) and I realized that part of my problem is that even though I am not religious anymore I still define myself in terms of religion, because that is what I did my whole life. I defined myself in terms of Christianity, now I am starting to define myself in terms of not believing Christianity.

Yes...it's not healthy, either one. You need to find other outlets to channel your intellectual and social needs.

Having an epiphany that the religious beliefs and superstitions you've been indoctrinated to believe simply aren't true, or don't even make sense, can often cause the irresistible urge to tell other people how and why you figured it out.

But that is best to this in places like this, and not in real life. Here the bigotry and ostracizing and condescension you will receive for your doubts is from strangers, not from family and friends or coworkers you have to face in social situations.’

Trust me when I tell you there are lots of people, mostly analytical men, that are dragged to church by their spouses, and they sit in the pews, not really believing, or even paying attention, but still they go thru the motions for appearances, for maintaining social customs, or simply to please their wives. So that can easily be you, you can certainly even pretend to start to believe again if it makes your wife and family happy and helps your marriage. Where is the harm? You can still have an intellectual outlet on the internet to share your true beliefs with other atheists or debate with other Christians.

These are the types of compromises you face. Learning how to bite your tongue is the hardest part.

[M.Talkingsworth]

Yes...it's not healthy, either one. You need to find other outlets to channel your intellectual and social needs.

Having an epiphany that the religious beliefs and superstitions you've been indoctrinated to believe simply aren't true, or don't even make sense, can often cause the irresistible urge to tell other people how and why you figured it out.

But that is best to this in places like this, and not in real life. Here the bigotry and ostracizing and condescension you will receive for your doubts is from strangers, not from family and friends or coworkers you have to face in social situations.’

Trust me when I tell you there are lots of people, mostly analytical men, that are dragged to church by their spouses, and they sit in the pews, not really believing, or even paying attention, but still they go thru the motions for appearances, for maintaining social customs, or simply to please their wives. So that can easily be you, you can certainly even pretend to start to believe again if it makes your wife and family happy and helps your marriage. Where is the harm? You can still have an intellectual outlet on the internet to share your true beliefs with other atheists or debate with other Christians.

These are the types of compromises you face. Learning how to bite your tongue is the hardest part.

You know, I have seriously considered faking a re-conversion, or maybe trying to subscribe to a sort of more liberal/intellectually supportable Christianity. Something along the lines of acknowledging Jesus as a concept to promote positive change in people or acknowledging God as the source of all life. Something like that which is not so drastically out of touch with reality.

I guess time will be a good teacher in this situation.

Matt

[lilpixieofterror]

Moderated By: lilpixieofterror

Sorry guys, lack of sleep has caused me to mis-read what i was suppose to do, so this thread was restored

***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publically complain or whine, please take it to the Psychotherapy Room unless told otherwise.

[M.Talkingsworth]

* moderator notice *

Hey LGM, wanna go crash the Chrsitianity 201 forum and say a bunch of insulting things to the people who are trying to help each other out there?

[M.Talkingsworth]

Hey LGM, wanna go crash the Chrsitianity 201 forum and say a bunch of insulting things to the people who are trying to help each other out there?

I mean, now that I'm atheist that's what I'm supposed to do, right? Epitomize evil? Right. Of course, then I would be assuming an objective moral standard and blah blah blah...

[LGM]

Hey LGM, wanna go crash the Chrsitianity 201 forum and say a bunch of insulting things to the people who are trying to help each other out there?

No…I have a very low tolerance for the mind numbing, theological minutiae these Christians spend their days arguing over, with the most inane, incoherent, derivative babble you can imagine. Torturing some verse written by some anonymous first century author for months on end…for what? So they can feel smugly satisfied that they’ve got their personal god all figured out. That they are RIGHT, and therefore righteous.

I can’t help but notice that the deeper certain people get involved with Christianity, the more they become enamored with studying, picking and justifying what they consider the exact right brands of sub-beliefs, and pointing out to the competing brands, why their's are wrong. It’s all just idle chatter…wasting time waiting for their next life I suppose.

Other people I’ve noticed are simply drawn to a more generic Christianity based on a ‘love of neighbor’, these are the folks who you typically don’t find arguing theology, they are the ones you find in the food pantries and soup kitchens and doing missionary work in far off lands. Those are the Christians I admire.

[LGM]

I mean, now that I'm atheist that's what I'm supposed to do, right? Epitomize evil? Right. Of course, then I would be assuming an objective moral standard and blah blah blah...

There's nothing more amusing than the Christian blather that the moment you don't believe in their personal gods and superstitions, you no longer have a reason to behave morally to the standards of your society or social group.

Again, it's simply a display of amazing ignorance about how human interpersonal moral standards evolve and are enforced in human relationships and societies.

I'm guessing since your deconversion, you have committed genocide, tortured babies for fun, and you're having kinky sex with prostitutes and barnyard animals...because now you're no longer 'accountable' to god...the god that would 'forgive' you for any of those behaviors as long as you believe in him and sincerely 'repent'

[Zeluvia]

I did go through a deist period followed by a transcendental period, before giving up my last belief, which was in some kind of existence after death.

I suggest you stop with theology altogether for a bit, and hit science and history.

[Tonto Goldstein]

Hello All,

I've been lurking around here for some time and have been interested in Matt's de-conversion story. Matt I really wanted to chime in to say good luck with your future endeavors. I had a difficult transition as well, but once I was able to let go of religion things made so much more sense. I would say atheism made me happier than Christianity ever did. Of course I grew up Catholic, so letting go of all that guilt was bound to be good for a soul.

I think LGM is giving you great advice when he tells you to keep your atheism to yourself unless you can trust the people you share it with. At least until you’ve had time to go through the ups and downs of the process, and come to equilibrium. I think you will have “good” atheism days and “bad” atheism days along the way, but from reading your posts it seems clear that you are intelligent and you value reason; therefore however it turns out for you I think you’ll be ok.

Take care of yourself Matt.
Rich

P.S. LGM I think you’re a credit to humanity and a mighty fine debater. I like your water over a rough stone approach. Eventually Pixie will be smoothed over by your persistence…or maybe not…but who cares it’s fun to watch.