shootings in israel

[Narnian]

Umm...no Verse 9:5 was about a battle during the time of the prophet not today. Most verses that talk about killing the unbelievers, it talks about a specific war and what the unbelievers had done. It is not universal. For example to prove 9:5 was only during the time of the prophet read 9:1, 9:13 to get your answer.

It says nothing of the sort in the text and there are no suggestions at all of these violent verses throughout the Quran being for a specific people at a specific time period. There is no story in chronological order, and no new covenants telling you that violence is finished.

And don't evade my questions. Why not have the new covenants in place of the old? How many thousand years were these laws in effect?

Traditioinal answer: 1200 years
Non traditional Scholarly answer: 200-400 years

And??? The difference between Jesus and Muhammad is that Jesus never suffered a dictator or group of people coming in and trying to wipe out his people and completely trying to destroy his word. Had that of happened, I would like to see what jesus would have done.

You obviously don't know much about the history of that region. It was under Roman occupation with a dictator in power. Read about the crucifixion and how Jesus handled the authorities.

Why don't you speak for the other 2/3 that do not support it! And of that 1/3 how many of them are living in palestine, iraq, or Lebanon?

A 1/3 is an enormous number of people supporting killing innocents; that's 400,000,000 people in the world. It is more than a critical mass. In Palestine, the number is 70% - check Pew research.

Irrelevant to me. Islam will continue, not the wahabi fundamentalist extremist garbage, but what Islam truly is, a religion that promotes peace and justice and preserves human life.

If those verses are causing so much misunderstanding and violence in the world, isn't it better that these pages are ripped out in the interests of peace? What is more important; humanity or a book?

You are just full of hatred Narnian.

You're right: I hate evil. Ro 12:9 - Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;

[barnasha]

It says nothing of the sort in the text and there are no suggestions at all of these violent verses throughout the Quran being for a specific people at a specific time period. There is no story in chronological order, and no new covenants telling you that violence is finished.

chronology aside, it contains historical references. (not to mention history of revelation)

perhaps you wouldnt know as you read it out of context from propaganda websites.

A 1/3 is an enormous number of people supporting killing innocents; that's 400,000,000 people in the world. It is more than a critical mass. In Palestine, the number is 70% - check Pew research.

the group of people with 70% supporting such attacks are ones who are virtual prisoners to the israeli government.

Wide majorities say such attacks are, at most, rarely acceptable. However, this is decidedly not the case in the Palestinian territories. Fully 70% of Palestinians believe that suicide bombings against civilians can be often or sometimes justified, a position starkly at odds with Muslims in other Middle Eastern, Asian, and African nations.

starkly at odds, why? it is a specific political situation.

faithfully try to understand this situation and don't use it as some sort of salvo to fire off at the islamic religion in general.

seems like anything you do is to find something bad to say about the other people, but you never look into the reasons behind it and try to make it better...

so can we say you really care?

If those verses are causing so much misunderstanding and violence in the world, isn't it better that these pages are ripped out in the interests of peace? What is more important; humanity or a book?

What should be removed in the interest of speech is people who distort them to look like they are for war.

Read the whole thing, not just the part you want to construe as having YOUR meaning.

You're right: I hate evil. Ro 12:9 - Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Proverbs 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogance, and the evil way, and the fraudulent mouth, do I hate.

[Narnian]

the group of people with 70% supporting such attacks are ones who are virtual prisoners to the israeli government. ...... it is a specific political situation.

Well you have just proven that you belong to the 30% of muslims worldwide who make excuses for, and therefore inadvertantly support, indiscriminate violence against civilians. You've just shown your true face!

Actually I believe the figure is higher than 30% worldwide, because the researchers didn't count those in denial and those using taqqiya.

What should be removed in the interest of speech is people who distort them to look like they are for war.

That's because Islam is more afraid of words than swords. Swords won't end it ..... but words will. That's why you and other muslims are so keen to censor opposing views, yet happy to engage with swords and guns.

Colossians 3:8
Proverbs 10:12
Proverbs 8:13 .

You don't even believe what the bible says about Jesus, so why use it as emotional blackmail to shut me up??

[moose7237]

It says nothing of the sort in the text and there are no suggestions at all of these violent verses throughout the Quran being for a specific people at a specific time period. There is no story in chronological order, and no new covenants telling you that violence is finished.

Hello and Peace be to all,

Oh no??? Lets see about that:

[009:001] A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

Gee if my history is correct this is talking about the treaty of Huddaibiya which Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) made with the pagans 1400 years ago!

[009:013] Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plotted to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you ? Do you fear them ? Nay, ALLAH is most worthy that you should fear HIM, if you are believers.

Plotted to turn out the messenger??? Again, if my history is correct, the messenger lived 1400 years ago. Can you please show how this applies today, when clearly the Quran is speaking about this event when the prophet was alive during this battle? The battle against the pagans in this war is over, therefore 9:5 applied to the Muslims at the time of the prophet, NOT TODAY!!! The Quran doesn't need to tell us violence is finished, it tells us not to start it in the first place:

[004:090] Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If God had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then God Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).

Gee I wonder why Narnian never EVER wants to approach this verse. You can't deceive anyone if you do Narnian.

And lets see what Islam says about the enemy wanting peace when a war has started:

[008:061] But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

So a question that I expect you not to evade Narnian, if Islam is such a violent ideology, why is it preaching peace? Why does the Quran say, do not fight anyone if they don't fight you, and give the enemy peace if they want it? I thought this was supposed to be a violent religion, yet the quran orders the Muslims not to start war and to give peace when peace is wanted. Why would an evil religion preach peace???

Traditioinal answer: 1200 years
Non traditional Scholarly answer: 200-400 years

So for 200-400 years(I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here), There was such barbarism in the OT, why aren't you in the Judaism forum and complaining to them how violent their religion is? You quote from battles that took place in the Quran, but never from battles of the OT? Don't be hypocritical.

You obviously don't know much about the history of that region. It was under Roman occupation with a dictator in power. Read about the crucifixion and how Jesus handled the authorities.

Israel was under roman occupation? Please provide a source, and show me where the Israelis were being persecuted or being killed off by the Romans.

A 1/3 is an enormous number of people supporting killing innocents; that's 400,000,000 people in the world. It is more than a critical mass. In Palestine, the number is 70% - check Pew research.

I would expect that from Palestine, because they will say anything to have their freedom from Israel. I can't blame them for it either. Is it right? No its not. But you are taking statistics from a country that is being occupied right now. And how big was the population size that was surveyed about this? And evenly distributed was the survey done? You can't interview 1000 people in Palestine and 100 in America.

If those verses are causing so much misunderstanding and violence in the world, isn't it better that these pages are ripped out in the interests of peace? What is more important; humanity or a book?

Its not the verses, but the excuse the extremists make to justify their violence. Their excuse is religion, even though the fact is they know what they are doing is wrong. Just like George W. Bush stated that God told him to go to war with Iraq. Thats just his excuse to war with a country. He knows its wrong. You can't just isolate one verse and use it to justify your killings. Their intention is to try and deceive people by using religion even though they kill for their personal gain.

You're right: I hate evil. Ro 12:9 - Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good;

No you just hate on a religion that is superior. You are nothing but a deceiver. You never quote verses in any of their context, and you never quote any verses that preach peace and justice. You are nothing but a hater. You never would go to a site or forum that has Muslims condemn violence, but you go to sites or forums to try and find the most extreme of all people and use them to justify your hate.

[moose7237]

Buddy, I'm in the Army Reserves & served over there .... I know there are bad commanders; but when they are caught they are prosecuted. We've had over one million service personnel deployed over there, and while there are a few dozen examples of psycho idiots who were among us, the stats speak for themselves. Heck, Iraqi's seem to trust us more than their own police, soldiers, or lunatic militias (more proof as to who the good guys are). Your just another example of the sheep who allow one example that someone posted on Youtube (or wherever you got this krap from, since your right ... I didn't bother to waste my time checking out your link to subversive propaganda) to shape your belief about an entire organizations, country, and even people. I won't even begin to drive down the tit for tat road and point out the many psychopaths Islam seems to not only tolerate but admire (you know like the guys who think its fun to saw off of the heads of innocent civilians with a dull knife) .... but you probably don't believe such people exist in your society or religion, which shows the extent you will either blind yourself to the truth or spread lies to support your position.

Hello and Peace be to all,

Firstly, I condemn, any violence any one does to another person. That being said, I condemn these extremists sawing off a defenseless man's head. I hope those people suffer in this world and in hell after this world. For your information, I've had MUSLIM family members being threatened with their lives because of these extremists. We had to pay ransom money. Next, the Iraq war is fought over for oil, nothing else. First the excuse was for WMD's but there was none, so the next excuse was to free the Iraqis from Saddam, which now they are worse off. The troops are miserable as well. 4000 or so dead and a staggering suicide rate. And for what??? So a few greedy men can take the countries' oil. If America really is playing world police, what is the army doing in darfur where a great genocide is taking place? And you don't want to see any of these videos because they expose the lies propogated by the media. They are not propaganda but actual videos of what is going on. An ex marine, whom I would mention doesn't seem like is going to jail for what he did, admits to killing civilians and was congradulated for it, and fired into a mosque when no threats came from it. I bet your still one of the proud patriotic americans who still believes 6 terrorists under the order of Osama Bin Laden caused 9/11.

I doubt there's any significant truth in anything you say. You're brain washed if you really think this. I don't doubt ulterior or even bad motives on the part of some of our politicians; this of course is because (as I've pointed out) no organization, country, or people is devoid of the problem of human imperfection. However, to advance a notion like Hamas is really out for peace with Israel is ridiculous. Why for example won't they even recognize Israel? Why did the president of Iran openly say (in front of TV cameras that we all saw) Israel should be wiped off the map? No one here believes your b/s (except your fellow idiots) ..... at some point we should cease being afraid to state the obvious, Islamic civilization is inferior to Western Civilization (I think Berlusconi, along with that brave Italian author, whose name escapes me, were the only ones who had the cahoonies to state this truth).

I quoted a source which said that Hamas wanted peace with Israel. The country is suffering. I have shown video proof of how bad Israel is. You have not refuted any of it, but acknowledge only that I'm brainwashed but don't explain whats wrong with the footage I have shown or the articles I have quoted. You can say I am brainwashed and I'm falling for propaganda, but until you start refuting my claims and my sources, you can't prove me wrong. And no, the president of Iran did not say he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. that was a lie by the media. I will prove it:

That passage will mean nothing to most people, but one word might ring a bell: rezhim-e. It is the word "Regime", pronounced just like the English word with an extra "eh" sound at the end. Ahmadinejad did not refer to Israel the country or Israel the land mass, but the Israeli regime. This is a vastly significant distinction, as one cannot wipe a regime off the map. Ahmadinejad does not even refer to Israel by name, he instead uses the specific phrase "rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods" (regime occupying Jerusalem).

So this raises the question.. what exactly did he want "wiped from the map"? The answer is: nothing. That's because the word "map" was never used. The Persian word for map, "nagsheh", is not contained anywhere in his original farsi quote, or, for that matter, anywhere in his entire speech. Nor was the western phrase "wipe out" ever said. Yet we are led to believe that Iran's President threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", despite never having uttered the words "map", "wipe out" or even "Israel".

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/1...of_The_Century

Go to this site for an in depth proof to debunking this false claim made by the media.

As for me I could care less if you guys want to spend your lives herding camels .... leave our cities and Israel alone and you can sleep with camels for all I care (even though the ASPCA might disagree)



AW

Why are you being a hater for? If anything why is you army in our country in the first place? There were no WMD's just leave them alone. They are happier with their dictator. Oh thats right, the oil! And 5 Israelis could have prevented 9/11.

[Narnian]

[009:001] A (declaration) of immunity from God and His Apostle, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

Gee if my history is correct this is talking about the treaty of Huddaibiya which Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) made with the pagans 1400 years ago!

The verse does not include "treaty of Huddaibiya" in the text. It simply refers to these people as "pagans". Pagans still exist in this world is large numbers, ie anyone who is not muslim, christian or jew is a pagan.

[009:013] Will you not fight a people who have broken their oaths, and who plot to turn out the Messenger, and they were the first to commence hostilities against you ? Do you fear them ? Nay, ALLAH is most worthy that you should fear HIM, if you are believers.

Plotted to turn out the messenger??? Again, if my history is correct, the messenger lived 1400 years ago.

So if "kill those who make war on Allah and his prophet" is a metaphor, then so are those who "plotted to turn out the messenger".

[004:090]

Gee I wonder why Narnian never EVER wants to approach this verse. You can't deceive anyone if you do Narnian.

Why have the previous verse then? Good literature means using the main subject first. Therefore, if Allah wants to tell you not to harm anyone except those who are running at you with a sword about to take over your govenment, then he should have started his sentence with "Do not kill anyone, except ...."

What I really think is going on here, is that a redactor has inserted verse 4:90 - I have seen many such verses in the Quran, since I am familiar with the Documentary hypothesis they are easy to spot. In the near future, there will no doubt be a Quran Documentary Hypothesis. American scholars have already discovered an ancient Quran with overwriting on it, seen through an xray. The later redactor did not like the violence he was reading, so he inserted a "except those who make a treaty" verses after a violence teaching.

Furthermore, why should we have to make peace treaties anyway? Aren't we adults? I don't have to make a peace treaty with my Zoroastrian neighbours across the road.

And besides, didn't muhammad break treaties and encourage taqqiya?

So a question that I expect you not to evade Narnian, if Islam is such a violent ideology, why is it preaching peace?

Peaceful head choppings, peaceful amputations, peaceful wife beatings, peaceful slaying?

It is like a typical wife-abuser who hits his wife and then tells her he loves her. How can she say he's an abuser if he tells her he loves her?!

Why does the Quran say, do not fight anyone if they don't fight you, and give the enemy peace if they want it? I thought this was supposed to be a violent religion, yet the quran orders the Muslims not to start war and to give peace when peace is wanted. Why would an evil religion preach peace???

Because, as I have already proven, "fight", in the Quran, entails fighting against an invisible being and a man 1400 years dead! I have proven to you that this is not a metaphor, but propaganda. You said that Allah's metaphors were different to those of humans and that only leaves me laughing at how absurd either you are, or Allah is. Or both

You obviously haven't read the NT, because THAT is a book of peace. Nowhere do you find absurd teachings like: "slay the infidels wherever you find them; chop off their heads and fingers!" followed by a "except those who sign a peace treaty"! You think people are so stupid as to believe that such bizarre teachings mean peace?

Why put "slay the infidels wherever you find them; chop off their heads and fingers!" followed by a "[I]? Why send a book from heaven with that written in there?

Israel was under roman occupation? Please provide a source, and show me where the Israelis were being persecuted or being killed off by the Romans.

The only time the Jews truly had full control over Judea was before they were conqured by the Babylonians in 600BC. From 600BC onwards, they always lived under occupation; first Babylonian occupation, then under Persian occupation after the Persians conqured Judea from the babylonians. Then the Greeks conquered the Judea in 300BC from the Persians, then the Roman came through a century before Jesus was born. Jesus was born under occupation! Never did he call ANYONE to fight them with swords! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

So, your claim that "if Jesus had been under occupation and a dictator then he would have taken up arms" falls flat on its face! Because he under occupation and a dictator (Herod),... and he didn't call for swords! He used intelligence to subvert occupation. Something that Muhammad was lacking.

I would expect that from Palestine, because they will say anything to have their freedom from Israel. I can't blame them for it either. Is it right? No its not.

Huh? Either suicide bombing is WRONG and you blame them, OR sucide bombing is RIGHT and you don't blame them. Logically, you can only choose only one.

Its not the verses, but the excuse the extremists make to justify their violence.

It IS the verses, and until people like you and barnasha etc, admit this problem, the slaughter will continue, and it's mostly muslims killing muslims.

No you just hate on a religion that is superior. You are nothing but a deceiver. You never quote verses in any of their context, and you never quote any verses that preach peace and justice. You are nothing but a hater. You never would go to a site or forum that has Muslims condemn violence, but you go to sites or forums to try and find the most extreme of all people and use them to justify your hate.

Despite using a lot of Ad Hominem in that paragraph I can hear the hurt in your words. But the injury does not come from me - it is from your own misguided "prophet" 1400 years ago. You need to turn in that direction and direct your hurt and anger there, not at me who merely points out the problems with the ideology and teachings of Islam.

So here's a hug for you

[Narnian]

Moose, here is some wonderful irony about Islam and denial. Geert Wilders created the movie "Fitna" which criticises the Quran for teaching violence. Now protesters in Jakata are protesting outside the Dutch embassy ..... Singing "God is great" demonstrators held banners reading "Kill Geert Wilders"

Not only is this a perfect example of killing those "who make war on Allah and his prophet" (ie ideological war) but you kill those who say Islam is violent!!!

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2...itsbest3vh.jpg

[bridgeforsale]

Hello and Peace be to all,

Firstly, I condemn, any violence any one does to another person. That being said, I condemn these extremists sawing off a defenseless man's head. I hope those people suffer in this world and in hell after this world. For your information, I've had MUSLIM family members being threatened with their lives because of these extremists. We had to pay ransom money.

I'm glad to hear some Muslims stand against this extremism & you sound like a good though somewhat misguided person. Why aren't there more public denouncements of his terror activity by Muslims? That seems to the problem with my own & public perception here in the US.

Next, the Iraq war is fought over for oil, nothing else. First the excuse was for WMD's but there was none, so the next excuse was to free the Iraqis from Saddam, which now they are worse off.

I never agreed with Iraq in the first place, I simply now think leaving prematurely would be a disaster. Frankly, as an American I'm not sure why we maintain a global hegemony? I see little reason why US tax dollars need to be spent to defend Germany (from a threat that doesn't exist). I'm all for withdrawing our military presence from much of the world & Iraq as soon as feasible.

As for the common oil theory, I'm not so sure? It seems we haven't gotten a drop of oil from Iraq?

The troops are miserable as well. 4000 or so dead and a staggering suicide rate.

having been one of them who did one tour I can only imagine how those who did three or four tours feel, let alone their families. That being said war is always a hardship for soldiers, this cannot be a reason to avoid war.

And for what??? So a few greedy men can take the countries' oil. If America really is playing world police, what is the army doing in darfur where a great genocide is taking place? And you don't want to see any of these videos because they expose the lies propogated by the media. They are not propaganda but actual videos of what is going on. An ex marine, whom I would mention doesn't seem like is going to jail for what he did, admits to killing civilians and was congradulated for it, and fired into a mosque when no threats came from it.

Like I said the US military prosecutes those who commit atrocities. Although the unit you mention (if its true) may have had a psychotic commander, such happens in war unfortunately.

I wonder if these Marines have already been prosecuted? If not youtube videos seem to be getting a lot of guys in trouble, so don't think that it's still not possible these men will have to answer for these acts.

I bet your still one of the proud patriotic americans who still believes 6 terrorists under the order of Osama Bin Laden caused 9/11.

Here's where you cross the line & your credibility withers. Two simple words .... prove it?

I quoted a source which said that Hamas wanted peace with Israel.

How can any organization want peace with a country they refuse to recognize? This is a silly notion to me.

The country is suffering. I have shown video proof of how bad Israel is. You have not refuted any of it, but acknowledge only that I'm brainwashed but don't explain whats wrong with the footage I have shown or the articles I have quoted. You can say I am brainwashed and I'm falling for propaganda, but until you start refuting my claims and my sources, you can't prove me wrong. And no, the president of Iran did not say he wanted to wipe Israel of the map. that was a lie by the media. I will prove it:

Wow, you are quite brainwashed since we have footage that proves you wrong. I guess you will listen to any wacky source out there that spins events to match your view?

Why are you being a hater for? If anything why is you army in our country in the first place? There were no WMD's just leave them alone. They are happier with their dictator. Oh thats right, the oil! And 5 Israelis could have prevented 9/11.

I would love a President who will take us off of oil as quickly as possible. To spite contrary reports I believe we can cut our consumption in half in five years with government intervention.

This way we would have no need to deal with such an unreasonable part of the world ever again. If we are hit by a terrorist attack where any country even provided haven to the terrorists we could nuke them. If we are hit by homegrown Muslims here in the US we could round them all up & kick them out and make sure they can't get back in. However, this is obviously a knee jerk reaction & this opinion represents the direction many Americans would love to go. Iraq is about trying to make sure this doesn't happen? Believe me this situation could get far more ugly and lest you guys forget we've used nukes in the past. I really don't know how Usama got the idea that Islam could ever defeat America when we could wipe it off the map with the push of some buttons.


AW

[bridgeforsale]

The link that serves as an apologist for the Iranian President and his recent comments states that he wants to wipe out the current Israeli regime (or government) and did not say he wants to wipe Israel off the map (the article points out that one cannot wipe a geographic region off the map). It seems a difference in semantics to me or any reasonable person. He hates Israel as it exists today (a Jewish state) and wants to destroy it. So much he stated and the article concedes. There is no difference between saying what he allegedly said & saying he wants to wipe it off the map; but I guess in the small minds of some there might be?

This thread isn't getting anywhere .... a waste of time as it seems trying to have a reasonable discussion with Muslims usually is. I'm hoping the Saudi's really can start a productive dialog between Muslims, Christians, and Jews (because as a Christian I always hope for peace); but I remain skeptical.

I've heard the reports of the Israeli's who knew about 9/11 before it happened (left wing American conspiracy theorists love to tell this story), which of course even if true doesn't mean they shared the information with their own government prior to the attack (it could have been five rogue agents who are now out of a job, who knows). However, to act as if this (true or not) does anything to minimize the guilt of Al Qaeda is silly (to use a kind word). They still did it right?


AW

[moose7237]

The verse does not include "treaty of Huddaibiya" in the text. It simply refers to these people as "pagans". Pagans still exist in this world is large numbers, ie anyone who is not muslim, christian or jew is a pagan.

Hello and Peace be to all,

Go read the history on why this verse was revealed. Even if it doesn't say Huddaibiya by name, there was a treaty that was made in the prophets time, not in our time of today, so sura 9, was revealed about the pagans in Mecca at the time, not about the pagans of today, therefore, by that, and proof of the prophet's name mentioned during this war, means that this war was specific to only that time and not today. Therefore, 9:5 does not apply today, but during the war of the time of the prophet. Muslims acknowledge this, that is why they aren't killing off pagans anymore, because there is peace from the pagans today, and that war is over.

So if "kill those who make war on Allah and his prophet" is a metaphor, then so are those who "plotted to turn out the messenger".

What's that a metaphor for? If you want to understand it as the same, then its metaphorical for those who wanted to plot out to turn the muslims, which is the same case, means that the pagans started this war. But, I want to see your proof that this is metaphorical. You are not the one who decides what is metaphorical and what is literal.

Why have the previous verse then? Good literature means using the main subject first. Therefore, if Allah wants to tell you not to harm anyone except those who are running at you with a sword about to take over your govenment, then he should have started his sentence with "Do not kill anyone, except ...."

No, your opinion is not fact. The previous verse is instruction to the Muslims, simple as that. Just like the verse I quoted, is also instruction to the Muslims. I see no problem with that at all. And if the person just reads 4:90 they will see clearly who war can be made against and who not. Like I said, you would never EVER quote a verse like this.

What I really think is going on here, is that a redactor has inserted verse 4:90 - I have seen many such verses in the Quran, since I am familiar with the Documentary hypothesis they are easy to spot. In the near future, there will no doubt be a Quran Documentary Hypothesis. American scholars have already discovered an ancient Quran with overwriting on it, seen through an xray. The later redactor did not like the violence he was reading, so he inserted a "except those who make a treaty" verses after a violence teaching.

Why am I even continuing here??? The Quran has been around for over a thousand years, what are they waiting for. I can't even believe you made a comment like that. Well you go and jump the gun narnian, go and try to deceive more people, that someone inserted a verse in the quran to try and make it less violent. I have heard it all now.

Furthermore, why should we have to make peace treaties anyway? Aren't we adults? I don't have to make a peace treaty with my Zoroastrian neighbours across the road.

And besides, didn't muhammad break treaties and encourage taqqiya?

You have no idea how the living conditions were at the time of Muhammad, when he tried to preach a religion with not many followers, to cities full of pagans and idol worshipers. I am happy that there were peace treaties made so lives would be spared. Muhammad(pbuh) was persecuted by the pagans, and was denied pilgrimage to mecca. I am happy that there were peace treaties. No, Muhammad did not break treaties.

Peaceful head choppings, peaceful amputations, peaceful wife beatings, peaceful slaying?

It is like a typical wife-abuser who hits his wife and then tells her he loves her. How can she say he's an abuser if he tells her he loves her?!

Where is your proof of any of this??? The Quran never identified any of those things as peaceful, this is your gross interpretation, and yet, more guff from you

Because, as I have already proven, "fight", in the Quran, entails fighting against an invisible being and a man 1400 years dead! I have proven to you that this is not a metaphor, but propaganda. You said that Allah's metaphors were different to those of humans and that only leaves me laughing at how absurd either you are, or Allah is. Or both

No you haven't. The only thing you have done was fight a strawman. And I never said Allah's metaphors at all. I am hoping you can read, because I never said Allah's metaphors. I said ALLAH is different from HUMANS. I never said anything about Allah's metaphors. You said a metaphor is a comparison between 2 unrelated things. I said, Allah and humans are different. Here is what a metaphor is:

Unlike similes that use the words “as” or “like” to make a comparison, metaphors state that something is something else.

http://www.rhlschool.com/eng3n26.htm

You want the dictionary.com definition as well??? Here it is again:

1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance

So dictionary.com refutes you as well!!! Now it is up to you to show how I am not applying this definition correctly to verse 5:33. Muslims understand this to be metaphorical. Thus you are arguing a straw man.

If you want violence from Jesus that I want to see you try and prove it is metaphorical here you go:

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)

Its like me saying that Matthew 5:29 is literal when Christians say its metaphorical, I am arguing a strawman, which is what you are doing. Here is Matthew 5:29

29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

You obviously haven't read the NT, because THAT is a book of peace. Nowhere do you find absurd teachings like: "slay the infidels wherever you find them; chop off their heads and fingers!" followed by a "except those who sign a peace treaty"! You think people are so stupid as to believe that such bizarre teachings mean peace?

See above, you are wrong. Have you read the NT? Jesus says gouge out your eye and throw it away if it causes you to sin, or cut off your hand if it causes you to sin(matthew 5:30) evidently you have not read the NT very well have you? Or Jesus killing the woman who commits adultery in Revelation.

Why put "slay the infidels wherever you find them; chop off their heads and fingers!" followed by a "[I]? Why send a book from heaven with that written in there?

Stop isolating verses. You are taking verses out of their context. Allah doesn't expect his followers to understand something by just reading one verse and ignoring the rest of the chapter. Read verse 9:5 in its context, up to 9:13, and you will see why Allah orders for the pagans to be killed, and which pagans(not all of them) to be killed. Thats why you are a deceiver because you isolate verses and are can't quote them in context.

The only time the Jews truly had full control over Judea was before they were conqured by the Babylonians in 600BC. From 600BC onwards, they always lived under occupation; first Babylonian occupation, then under Persian occupation after the Persians conqured Judea from the babylonians. Then the Greeks conquered the Judea in 300BC from the Persians, then the Roman came through a century before Jesus was born. Jesus was born under occupation! Never did he call ANYONE to fight them with swords! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judea

Now when they were occupied, did Herod command his army to go into Jerusalem and kill the Jews? Thats what I want to see, Jews threatened with their lives by this dictator. I want to see how they would have reacted, either die, or fight back. Lets see what Jesus came for:

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, 'Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!.' (John 2:15)"

Remember, the gospels were written 30 years minimum after Jesus. I'm sure they didn't record all the events that happened during his time.

So, your claim that "if Jesus had been under occupation and a dictator then he would have taken up arms" falls flat on its face! Because he under occupation and a dictator (Herod),... and he didn't call for swords! He used intelligence to subvert occupation. Something that Muhammad was lacking.

No, I want to see this dictator, killing Jesus' people. Show me that, and I want to see how Jesus reacted. I want to see these romans coming to Jerusalem in armies, and declaring a war with Jesus and his people. Then I want to see how he would have reacted, either die or fight. Was he ever in that situation?

Huh? Either suicide bombing is WRONG and you blame them, OR sucide bombing is RIGHT and you don't blame them. Logically, you can only choose only one.

It depends who the suicide bombing is against. If it is against the violent ones of the Israeli army, then I wouldn't condemn it so much. If it was against innocent jews who have nothing to do with killing palestenians, then its wrong.

It IS the verses, and until people like you and barnasha etc, admit this problem, the slaughter will continue, and it's mostly muslims killing muslims.

Its not the verses that are the problem but the people. The Quran clearly says, fight those who fight you, and give peace to those who want peace, and do not fight if you are given peace. Go read Nahjul balagha as well. The 4th caliph of the sunnis and the first Imam of the Shias states:

Do not fight against anybody unless he wishes to fight against you.

When you face your enemy, stand in the midst of your army, never alone. Do not be over-anxious to fight and do not behave as if you craving for a combat or aspiring for an encounter, but at the same time do not try to avoid your enemy or to evade an engagement as if you are afraid or nervous. Keep my orders in mind and act accordingly until you get further instructions. Do not let the hatred and enmity of your opponents force you to a combat, do not begin a battle even if the enemy so desires unless you have explored every avenue of amity and good-will and have exhausted all the chances of a peaceful settlement.

http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/lette...2.htm#letter12

Gee the cousin of the holy prophet, telling 3000 soldiers to do anything they can to achieve peace??? How can that be!!! According to Narnian, these people are supposed to be evil and violent.

Despite using a lot of Ad Hominem in that paragraph I can hear the hurt in your words. But the injury does not come from me - it is from your own misguided "prophet" 1400 years ago. You need to turn in that direction and direct your hurt and anger there, not at me who merely points out the problems with the ideology and teachings of Islam.

So here's a hug for you

The only one misguided, is you. Proof of that is your evasiveness of quoting any verses of the quran in their context. The prophet never intended for the quran to be taken out of context. His followers read the quran in its entirety, not like the cowardice of the anti-islamics, whose arguments come only from isolating verses in hopes of their goals of deception to succeed. Islam is a great religion. Allahu Akbar! Allah knows best.

[moose7237]

Moose, here is some wonderful irony about Islam and denial. Geert Wilders created the movie "Fitna" which criticises the Quran for teaching violence. Now protesters in Jakata are protesting outside the Dutch embassy ..... Singing "God is great" demonstrators held banners reading "Kill Geert Wilders"

Not only is this a perfect example of killing those "who make war on Allah and his prophet" (ie ideological war) but you kill those who say Islam is violent!!!

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/2...itsbest3vh.jpg

Hello and Peace be to all,

I don't speak for extremists. The media only wants to show the opinions of extremists to try and put down Islam. I, for one, do not want to see this man killed. He has the right to express his opinion. I am angry that his documentary is complete deception. Quoting verses out of their context and showing videos of extremists.

[Narnian]

You have no idea how the living conditions were at the time of Muhammad, when he tried to preach a religion with not many followers, to cities full of pagans and idol worshipers.

The Quran is for all time and for all people; not just the Meccans in 700AD, otherwise, why bother with it at all? Secondly, if Allah wanted to impart a new glorious religion that would bring salvation to the world, why not give his teachings to a more intelligent set of people so that it would have longer lasting, more across-the-board value?

I never said Allah's metaphors. I said ALLAH is different from HUMANS. I never said anything about Allah's metaphors. You said a metaphor is a comparison between 2 unrelated things. I said, Allah and humans are different.

This is what I understand you're saying; please correct me if wrong, and use the same deductive sequence:

Allah doesn't have different metaphors
Allah is different to humans
(Therefore) Allah does have different metaphors

Your dictionary definiton of a metaphor is just a basic definition. If Allah had said: "those who make war on the couch potatos" or "those who make war on the sitting ducks" or "those who make war on the ruffled-feathered ones" ...... that would have been a metaphor. But "those who make war on Allah and his prophet" is propaganda through the use of a logical fallacy, where the writer uses an Appeal to Fear and Emotion.

I just had a brief look at all the Propaganda techniques, and the Quran uses them all consistently!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda#Techniques

The Quran is a propaganda manual!!

"So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. (From the NIV Bible, Revelation 2:22-23)

We've been thru this before. The "prostitute" is a well known metaphor for worshipping other gods. You will find the same metaphor in 1000s of references from the Torah and prophets. "Prostitute" has no common resemblence to "worshipping other gods", yet the imagery works very well in imparting the message through pictures. It is therefore a very good metaphor.

Its like me saying that Matthew 5:29 is literal when Christians say its metaphorical, I am arguing a strawman, which is what you are doing. Here is Matthew 5:29
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

This is not propaganda, but Hyperbole. This is a Greek literay device which is also used a lot in the later section of the OT as well. It is when you exaggerate something to the extreme to make a point, often with a shade of humour. For example; "If I have to wait any longer for dinner I'll die!" or "I'll hug you to death"! ....... Hyperbole.

English literature lesson over?

Now when they were occupied, did Herod command his army to go into Jerusalem and kill the Jews? Thats what I want to see, Jews threatened with their lives by this dictator. I want to see how they would have reacted, either die, or fight back.

They were all cruel despots during that era. Look up Herod - he killed the best friend of Jesus; John the Baptist, but not once did Jesus call for revenge. The thing was that Jesus was more intelligent than to stir them up by swinging swords around and cursing enemies etc. He used clever teachings and hidden meanings that subverted their oppressors' ideology. It is all through the NT, ie;

Matthew 22:17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?" 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin used for the tax." And they brought him a denarius. 20 Then he said to them, "Whose head is this, and whose title?" 21 They answered, "The emperor's." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's." 22 When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

Theologians say that Western secularism originates from that teaching.

Lets see what Jesus came for:

"Do not suppose that I [Jesus] have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)"

No, that verse does not mean to kill others, it means a sword (metaphor for "hardship") against oneself.

So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. To those who sold doves he said, 'Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!.' (John 2:15)"

Trying hard, aren't you Moral equivalence between someone swinging a whip around ............... and brutal murderes of single mother, torture and beheadings of Muhammad? Right .....

Remember, the gospels were written 30 years minimum after Jesus. I'm sure they didn't record all the events that happened during his time.

You're cornered

I wonder where all the 1000s of liars about were Jesus then, making up stories like they did with Muhammad raping little girls, chopping people's limbs off or murdering single mothers?

Its not the verses that are the problem but the people. The Quran clearly says, fight those who fight you, and give peace to those who want peace, and do not fight if you are given peace.

A question you still haven't answered: Why tell something that is total common sense? Did Allah think his people were so stupid? Even dinosaurs knew to defend themselves and not bother with those animals who left them in peace

Islam is a great religion. Allahu Akbar!

It's as though you are trying to convince yourself of this

Allah knows best.

That's a cop out. You've been given a brain - you use it. Don't allow the Quran to brainwash you into believing the irrational.

[moose7237]

The Quran is for all time and for all people; not just the Meccans in 700AD, otherwise, why bother with it at all? Secondly, if Allah wanted to impart a new glorious religion that would bring salvation to the world, why not give his teachings to a more intelligent set of people so that it would have longer lasting, more across-the-board value?

Hello and Peace be to all,

Huh??? My response was to your question about why Muhammad made peace treaties. I stated because the living conditions at the time were difficult, he had enemies that didn't want Islam to pass their pagan teachings, so he made peace treaties with them. Not all of the Quran is intended for all time. The laws of the Quran yes. The stories narrated about Moses, Jesus, David, etc. Those really are stories that don't impact our lives today. Like you said, the Quran is intended for all people, so the race it was given to seems irrelevant to me.

This is what I understand you're saying; please correct me if wrong, and use the same deductive sequence:

Allah doesn't have different metaphors
Allah is different to humans
(Therefore) Allah does have different metaphors

I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT ALLAH'S METAPHORS!!! I just said Allah and man are different. One is infinite the other is finite. Humans are physical God is not. You quoted from wikipedia that a metaphor tries to compare to different things. Are God and humans different YES.

Your dictionary definiton of a metaphor is just a basic definition. If Allah had said: "those who make war on the couch potatos" or "those who make war on the sitting ducks" or "those who make war on the ruffled-feathered ones" ...... that would have been a metaphor. But "those who make war on Allah and his prophet" is propaganda through the use of a logical fallacy, where the writer uses an Appeal to Fear and Emotion.

Even if it is a basic definition. You haven't shown any indication that I am understanding it wrong, or that I am misinterpreting it. From my personal understanding, to wage war against a muslim government or muslims strictly because of their faith, INDIRECTLY means you are waging war against the prophet because he was the one who revealed it to the people, so without him there is no Islam so to speak, and INDIRECTLY you are waging war against God because he is the originator of the religion. So this is what I see it as being a metaphor. You are not literally but metaphorically waging war on God and the prophet, and are literally waging war against the Muslims. Nevertheless, I didn't misuse what a metaphor is in regards to verse 5:33, and you keep speaking more guff. You are debating based on your biased emotions to try and win over the opinion of the people engaged in this conversation.

I just had a brief look at all the Propaganda techniques, and the Quran uses them all consistently!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda#Techniques

The Quran is a propaganda manual!!

More and More useless talk. Back up your claims and stop debating on your emotions.

We've been thru this before. The "prostitute" is a well known metaphor for worshipping other gods. You will find the same metaphor in 1000s of references from the Torah and prophets. "Prostitute" has no common resemblence to "worshipping other gods", yet the imagery works very well in imparting the message through pictures. It is therefore a very good metaphor.

Yea it seems like any slight verse that shows violence in the NT by you is a metaphor. Lets look at this chapter a little further:

Rev. 2:20-23
You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.

Your metaphor seems WAY off. The woman Jezebel is someone literal, because here, she is declaring herself to be a prophetess. Fake Gods cannot speak, and worshippers of fake Gods are not lured into sexual immorality by something that is unable to speak. And why would Jesus say he would give her time to repent, if she is in fact, NOT REAL. Is this a fake repentance? So what is metaphorical for committing adultery here? According to Jesus it is sexual, so it seems like it can only mean that, literal sexual immorality. This is in no way a metaphor.

This is not propaganda, but Hyperbole. This is a Greek literay device which is also used a lot in the later section of the OT as well. It is when you exaggerate something to the extreme to make a point, often with a shade of humour. For example; "If I have to wait any longer for dinner I'll die!" or "I'll hug you to death"! ....... Hyperbole.

English literature lesson over?

So what is Jesus exaggerating for here? He says he wants this body part to stop sinning. What is the punishment if they eye keeps causing a person to lust? What does this hyperbole actually mean?

They were all cruel despots during that era. Look up Herod - he killed the best friend of Jesus; John the Baptist, but not once did Jesus call for revenge. The thing was that Jesus was more intelligent than to stir them up by swinging swords around and cursing enemies etc. He used clever teachings and hidden meanings that subverted their oppressors' ideology. It is all through the NT, ie;

So you are telling me that Jesus' best friend died at the hand of a dictator, and Jesus did nothing about it to punish or try and bring this dictator down? How unjust it is!!! Jesus keeps letting more and more innocent people die and not do anything about it. I am actually proud that Islam teaches you to fight such governments. What if America took this same approach Jesus did to Nazi Germany, I would believe that even more Jews would have died. To say that Jesus stood while people died and did nothing about it, just shows how cruel it is. You think that enemies will be compassionate and listen to what you have to say, they don't care, they will kill you no matter what your words are. And you are telling me, just let the dictator do it.

Matthew 22:17 Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not?" 18 But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, "Why are you putting me to the test, you hypocrites? 19 Show me the coin used for the tax." And they brought him a denarius. 20 Then he said to them, "Whose head is this, and whose title?" 21 They answered, "The emperor's." Then he said to them, "Give therefore to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's." 22 When they heard this, they were amazed; and they left him and went away.

This talks about tax money, nothing about fighting against the injustice the emperor or King Herod is doing to the people. Yea teachings like this surely changed Herod's mind from killing innocent people and occupying Israel.

No, that verse does not mean to kill others, it means a sword (metaphor for "hardship") against oneself.

LOL!!! Of course, because the word "sword" must be a metaphor because it doesn't suit Narnian's interpretation. Who are you trying to fool??? So Jesus is saying that he did not bring peace but hardship??? Wow, I'm happy not to be a follower of such teachings.

Trying hard, aren't you Moral equivalence between someone swinging a whip around ............... and brutal murderes of single mother, torture and beheadings of Muhammad? Right .....

Show me quranic verses(IN THEIR CONTEXT) or a hadith (primarily from Nahjul Balagha) that I adhere to (not sunni hadiths) that have Muhammad beheading people and killing innocent mothers. I want quranic verses specifically.

You're cornered

I wonder where all the 1000s of liars about were Jesus then, making up stories like they did with Muhammad raping little girls, chopping people's limbs off or murdering single mothers?

Just find any writings that quote Jesus and are not in the bible and you will see them. I have seen writings about Jesus killing a boy, not being crucified, etc.

A question you still haven't answered: Why tell something that is total common sense? Did Allah think his people were so stupid? Even dinosaurs knew to defend themselves and not bother with those animals who left them in peace

No its not common sense. If it were, then there would be no wars EVER at all. Firstly, Allah says Fight those who fight you, meaning do not start a fight. That seems like a bit more than common sense to me. Next if an enemy wants peace give it to them. This is hardly common sense, as the enemy in most cases would be destroyed regardless if they wanted peace or not, they are an enemy. Hitler, Saddam, the popes of the Inquisition, heck even the story of Cain and Abel, couldn't understand this concept. A bit more than common sense Narnian. Lastly, if there already is peace guaranteed to you, do not war. How many times do you see countries start wars for their own personal greed? I can tell you the Iraq war that is happening right now, falls under that category, again, this is not common sense stuff. Evidently Jesus tells his followers to turn their cheek when they are hit, hinting and no self defense. Are you calling Jesus stupid? Did Jesus lack something even Dinosaurs had? And you even gave more evidence to my claim. Jesus knew that King Herod was evil, he even killed John the Baptist, but he never defended his people or avenged John's death for it. Again, Did Jesus lack common sense?

It's as though you are trying to convince yourself of this

I know Allah is Greatest. Allahu Akbar!!!

That's a cop out. You've been given a brain - you use it. Don't allow the Quran to brainwash you into believing the irrational.

The Quran tells me to believe what I want to. I choose to be a Muslim, and am not brainwashed by any means. Islam is the greatest religion!

[Narnian]

Are God and humans different YES.

OK, I'm with you now; my apologies.

However, we are looking at semantics, and "muslims" are related to "allah" in meaning! It is still an Appeal to Emotion and propaganda. It is also a type of Slippery Slope fallacy as well. I'll give you another example; "If you are not a vegetarian you are eating dead flesh!" I substitute "meat" for "dead flesh" to make you feel revulsion and fear, and be more willing to listen to my vegetarian ideology. So, either Allah is using Appeal to emotion, by swapping muslims for "allah and his prophet" or he means what he says; "fight those who fight Islam ideologically". Whatever he means, Allah leaves the door wide open for you to kill critics of Islam and apostates.

Your metaphor seems WAY off. The woman Jezebel is someone literal, because here, she is declaring herself to be a prophetess. Fake Gods cannot speak, and worshippers of fake Gods are not lured into sexual immorality by something that is unable to speak. And why would Jesus say he would give her time to repent, if she is in fact, NOT REAL. Is this a fake repentance? So what is metaphorical for committing adultery here? According to Jesus it is sexual, so it seems like it can only mean that, literal sexual immorality. This is in no way a metaphor.

What does this hyperbole actually mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

Hyperbole is a figure of speech in which statements are exaggerated. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, and is not meant to be taken literally.

Hyperbole is used to create emphasis. It is often used in poetry and is a literary device.

Some examples include:

"He has a brain the size of a pea."
"I'm so hungry I could eat a horse."
"If I've told you once, I've told you a million times."
"She is one-hundred feet tall."
"Everything around me feels small."

The bible uses this device a lot, especially Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel (from memory).

So you are telling me that Jesus' best friend died at the hand of a dictator, and Jesus did nothing about it to punish or try and bring this dictator down? How unjust it is!!!
Jesus keeps letting more and more innocent people die and not do anything about it. I am actually proud that Islam teaches you to fight such governments. What if America took this same approach Jesus did to Nazi Germany, I would believe that even more Jews would have died. To say that Jesus stood while people died and did nothing about it, just shows how cruel it is. You think that enemies will be compassionate and listen to what you have to say, they don't care, they will kill you no matter what your words are. And you are telling me, just let the dictator do it.

That's because you only understand the Islamic way of dealing with violence .... ie you use more violence. Where has the teachings of revenge got your people? Into a deadly quagmire. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Lev 19:18 "Never seek revenge or bear a grudge against anyone, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Ro 12:19 - Don't take revenge, dear friends. Instead, let God's anger take care of it. After all, Scripture (Deuteronomy verse) says, "I alone have the right to take revenge. I will pay back, says the Lord."

Heb 10:30 - God who said, "I alone have the right to take revenge.

This talks about tax money, nothing about fighting against the injustice the emperor or King Herod is doing to the people. Yea teachings like this surely changed Herod's mind from killing innocent people and occupying Israel.

The Kingdom of God is beyond all that so who cares about governments and oppressors. This is what Jesus was saying. Seek God; find love in your heart: don't worry about anyone else, and all will fall into place. It worked, because within a couple of decades people were converting to Christianity in droves without violence (this was pre 313AD).

hey, don't forget that your Quran calls Jesus the Messiah - did allah get it wrong?

Just find any writings that quote Jesus and are not in the bible and you will see them. I have seen writings about Jesus killing a boy, not being crucified, etc.

That's just one story that was written centuries after Jesus and never considered "authentic" by anyone. But those Hadithes I am referring to - of which there are many repulsive ones - ARE considered authentic by millions of muslims worldwide!

No its not common sense. If it were, then there would be no wars EVER at all. Firstly, Allah says Fight those who fight you, meaning do not start a fight. That seems like a bit more than common sense to me. Next if an enemy wants peace give it to them. This is hardly common sense, as the enemy in most cases would be destroyed regardless if they wanted peace or not, they are an enemy. Hitler, Saddam, the popes of the Inquisition, heck even the story of Cain and Abel, couldn't understand this concept. A bit more than common sense Narnian. Lastly, if there already is peace guaranteed to you, do not war. How many times do you see countries start wars for their own personal greed? I can tell you the Iraq war that is happening right now, falls under that category, again, this is not common sense stuff.

All the above is plain common sense. Why, for example, is the westen world centuries ahead of the muslim world when we never got a manual from heaven telling us when to make wars and when to stop them? Why? And if Allah's Quran is so good at making a peaceful world, why is it that about 95% of all wars in the world today are being fought by muslims?

Evidently Jesus tells his followers to turn their cheek when they are hit, hinting and no self defense. Are you calling Jesus stupid? Did Jesus lack something even Dinosaurs had? And you even gave more evidence to my claim. Jesus knew that King Herod was evil, he even killed John the Baptist, but he never defended his people or avenged John's death for it. Again, Did Jesus lack common sense?

No, Jesus taught transcendence of the instinctual and violent brain. He sought to enhance our higher thinking.