Just curious

[surmux]

If Jehovah is immortal, then how can He die?

Isaiah 44:6
NWT – "This is what Jehovah has said… 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."
ESV– "Thus says the LORD… 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god'"
Rev 1:17-18
NWT – "…I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever"
ESV– "…Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am
alive forevermore"
Rev. 2:8
NWT – "…These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life [again]"
ESV– "…'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life'"

When did Jehovah die?

[surmux]

I guess my question sucks since no one will respond

[Sparko]

there are not too many JW's left on this board. they seem to run away pretty quickly.

good question, btw.

[MooseOnTheLoose]

Seriously, a JW I know told me that Witnesses were instructed to stay away from Tweb.

[Sparko]

Seriously, a JW I know told me that Witnesses were instructed to stay away from Tweb.

makes sense. if they come here and start learning to think for themselves and then what would happen to them? They might become Christians!

[OldShepherd]

If Jehovah is immortal, then how can He die?

Isaiah 44:6
NWT – "This is what Jehovah has said… 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."
ESV– "Thus says the LORD… 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god'"
Rev 1:17-18
NWT – "…I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever"
ESV– "…Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am
alive forevermore"
Rev. 2:8
NWT – "…These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life [again]"
ESV– "…'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life'"

When did Jehovah die?

If you have a problem with what the Bible says, take it up with Yahweh. The 16th century pronunciation, "Jehovah" is according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "a philological impossibility."

[Sparko]

If you have a problem with what the Bible says, take it up with Yahweh. The 16th century pronunciation, "Jehovah" is according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "a philological impossibility."

I think you are misreading him. I think he is saying that JW's say that Jehovah is "the first and the last" and is speaking in those verses, but a closer reading shows that he is claiming to have died. JW's dont beleive that God has died. so how can Jehovah be saying those verses? it must be Jesus. and that means that Jesus is speaking as Jehovah.

[surmux]

If you have a problem with what the Bible says, take it up with Yahweh. The 16th century pronunciation, "Jehovah" is according to the Jewish Encyclopedia, "a philological impossibility."

1.) Jehovah is God.
2.) Jehovah is the First and the Last.
3.) God cannot die, therefore The First and the Last cannot die.
4.) The First and the Last died, therefore Jehovah is not God.

OR

1.) A is B
2.) A is C.
3.) B cannot die, therefore C cannot die.
4.) C died, therefore A is not B.

There has been a fatal error somewhere. I guess I will just wait for the Watchtower to explain it to me (assuming there are any around TWeb).

[Cal_Minian]

If Jehovah is immortal, then how can He die?

Isaiah 44:6
NWT – "This is what Jehovah has said… 'I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God."
ESV– "Thus says the LORD… 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god'"
Rev 1:17-18
NWT – "…I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever"
ESV– "…Fear not, I am the first and the last, and the living one. I died, and behold I am
alive forevermore"
Rev. 2:8
NWT – "…These are the things that he says, 'the First and the Last,' who became dead and came to life [again]"
ESV– "…'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life'"

When did Jehovah die?

You likely did not get any responses because noone understood that you were apparently assuming that the title first and last was always a reference to Jehovah. However JWs read the bible in context and interpret the phrase by what follows it. Since in Rev 1:17-18 the first and the last is first and last in the context of death and resurrection, this does not refer to the Father.

Therefore JWs would not say Jehovah died. The title first and last is not equivalent to the name Jehovah.

[surmux]

You likely did not get any responses because noone understood that you were apparently assuming that the title first and last was always a reference to Jehovah. However JWs read the bible in context and interpret the phrase by what follows it. Since in Rev 1:17-18 the first and the last is first and last in the context of death and resurrection, this does not refer to the Father.

Therefore JWs would not say Jehovah died. The title first and last is not equivalent to the name Jehovah.

Wow, I didn't know that death and resurrection had a gender, a right hand, and could speak. Thanks!

I wonder if you would help me out one more time.

If I apply the way you read the Bible in context, and if I start at verse 13 where the "son of man is" the subject of the sentence, following the "him"s and "his"s, which refer to the son of man, while applying the way JWs read the bible in verse 14, 15, and 16, what would I get at verse 17? Also, with whatever answer you give me for the "him" in verse 17, wouldn't it follow that "him" is "he" that "laid his right hand on me"? And if "he" is the "him" from verse 17, wouldn't it be the "him" or "he" from verse 17 doing the talking in verse 17-18? Once again, I am just curious.

[Cal_Minian]

Wow, I didn't know that death and resurrection had a gender, a right hand, and could speak. Thanks!

I wonder if you would help me out one more time.

If I apply the way you read the Bible in context, and if I start at verse 13 where the "son of man is" the subject of the sentence, following the "him"s and "his"s, which refer to the son of man, while applying the way JWs read the bible in verse 14, 15, and 16, what would I get at verse 17? Also, with whatever answer you give me for the "him" in verse 17, wouldn't it follow that "him" is "he" that "laid his right hand on me"? And if "he" is the "him" from verse 17, wouldn't it be the "him" or "he" from verse 17 doing the talking in verse 17-18? Once again, I am just curious.

Whats your point. I agree that Jesus is the one who is the first and last in verse 17-18. The context of why he is the first and last in verse 18 prohibits the title from referring to anyone else.

[surmux]

Whats your point. I agree that Jesus is the one who is the first and last in verse 17-18. The context of why he is the first and last in verse 18 prohibits the title from referring to anyone else.

Oh, alright.

Then you would agree that Jesus is speaking in 22:13?

[Cal_Minian]

Oh, alright.

Then you would agree that Jesus is speaking in 22:13?

Thats a big jump from 1:17 to 22:13. There are a lot of speaker changes in between. What do you mean?

[surmux]

Thats a big jump from 1:17 to 22:13. There are a lot of speaker changes in between. What do you mean?

Well, in 22:13 the first and the last is speaking, and at 22:16 it states who is speaking in verse 22:12-13, Jesus (as in verse 20:7 and 20:12, we know Christ is speaking because verse 22:20 states who is "coming soon" since immediately following John says, "Amen. Come Lord Jesus!" ).

[surmux]

Where ya at cal?