Your experiences with JWs

[the copt]

s

Many scholars consider the parable of the rich man and Lazarus to be just that... a parable. If you look at passages that teach about death that are not parables and/or full of symbolisms, bible writers teach that the dead are not conscious.

-Cal

well ... but all jesus parable were from real life and talked about things happen in real life ... why this parable of rich man and lazarus be "sympolic " one ?? ... beside ... if the dead are not conscious ... jesus will not give a "sympolic parable" about wrong thing that never happens :) he always say the truth and will never get a "satanic ideas" to give parables with .... didn't the watchtower organization always said that the tournament after death is "satanic ideas" ? did jesus use a satanic idea to explain his teaching to people ??

beside ... why you didnt reply on my citation of revelation ?? is that too a parable ??

secondly : matthew 17 : 2 -4 (NWT)

" 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And, look! there appeared to them Moses and E·li´jah, conversing with him. 4 Responsively Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li´jah


wait a second ... isn't moses dead !! ? isn't he unconscious ?! ?? HOW HE CAN APPEAR TO JESUS ?? AND TALK TO HIM ? WAIT ... that is a parable .. right !?

MATTHEW 18:8 - 9(NWT)

"8 If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 " ofcourse jesus here use a parable right ?? ... waiting for another Episode ...

[Cal_Minian]

well ... but all jesus parable were from real life and talked about things happen in real life ... why this parable of rich man and lazarus be "sympolic " one ?? ... beside ... if the dead are not conscious ... jesus will not give a "sympolic parable" about wrong thing that never happens :) he always say the truth and will never get a "satanic ideas" to give parables with .... didn't the watchtower organization always said that the tournament after death is "satanic ideas" ? did jesus use a satanic idea to explain his teaching to people ??

beside ... why you didnt reply on my citation of revelation ?? is that too a parable ??

secondly : matthew 17 : 2 -4 (NWT)

" 2 And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone as the sun, and his outer garments became brilliant as the light. 3 And, look! there appeared to them Moses and E·li´jah, conversing with him. 4 Responsively Peter said to Jesus: “Lord, it is fine for us to be here. If you wish, I will erect three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for E·li´jah


wait a second ... isn't moses dead !! ? isn't he unconscious ?! ?? HOW HE CAN APPEAR TO JESUS ?? AND TALK TO HIM ? WAIT ... that is a parable .. right !?

MATTHEW 18:8 - 9(NWT)

"8 If, then, your hand or your foot is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed or lame than to be thrown with two hands or two feet into the everlasting fire. 9 " ofcourse jesus here use a parable right ?? ... waiting for another Episode ...

You are branching off on a tangent. My point is that many in Christendom consider that hell is symbolic of separation from God. You have not acknowledged or harmed that position. I understand that you and others don't agree. When you don't agree you argue against the majority view in Christendom today. Argue with them. I have already made my point.

-Cal

[the copt]

You are branching off on a tangent. My point is that many in Christendom consider that hell is symbolic of separation from God. You have not acknowledged or harmed that position. I understand that you and others don't agree. When you don't agree you argue against the majority view in Christendom today. Argue with them. I have already made my point.

-Cal

CHRISTENDOM ...where is in the CHRISTENDOM any one say of annihilation ?? at least my church in Egypt ... and the whole orthodox church dont say of it ... so you cant say "CHRISTENDOM" in general .. beside even those who interpret the hell in diffrent way say that it is a "sympolic place" ... they just say " it is a real place .. but we dont know how exactly it is " :)


there is no christian denomination believes in Annihilation dear sir ... that what you believe in ... yes some people said that the torment will not be in real fire ... but "another kind of fire" or " psychological pain because of seperation from god" but what can i say to you that i believe the bible sir .... and of course you will not reply to any of my biblical quotes

eternal torment is a biblical dogma ... may be some people "interpret" it in diffrent ways ... some people interpret it as "psychological pain" ... not "physical pain" .... torment is not always "physical pain" if you think so :) ... all of those are interpretations ... nothing sure ..
dont get me sayings from graham bill or others to prove anything to me .... because i believe what the bible say only ... please show to me where is the "graham bill" book in the bible ..

we have 66 bible books ... none of them called "graham bill"


now please answer my quotes about the immortality of human soul and eternal torment

about Ecclesiastes 9 : 5 ...... read this article http://www.4witness.org/jwscripture/jw_ecc9_5.php

[Cal_Minian]

[the copt]
CHRISTENDOM ...where is in the CHRISTENDOM any one say of annihilation ??

That is quite besides the point, but since you asked, I suggest you look no farther than the Anglican Church of England.

Whether or not the dead are consciously tormented in Hell is also questioned by some Evangelicals.

-Cal

[the copt]

you get me some personal Opinions of some Evangliacal pastors and want it to cancel an 2000 years Doctrine ... ?!! talk as you want about the anglican church :) .... liberal anglicans can say what they want ... because ... in the past they allowed GAY MARRIAGE ... so if they believed in annihilation or not .... they are just bunch of heretics :) i talk about traditional - historical - biblical - chirstians ... not those who gone astray ...chrisitians around the world agree on eternal punishment because it is biblical .... so you cant say that "CHRISTANDOM" agrees about sympolic hell and annihilation...or ... if you say so .. i will say too that Jehovah witnesses will allow blood transfusion ...

see ...

http://www.jwreform.org/
http://www.ajwrb.org/ ( new light on blood)


if those people who are JW and agree on blood transfusion represents "the whole Jehovah Witnesses body" ... then talk about some people who gone astray and wanted to replace the biblical eternal torment with annihilation ...catholic , orthodox , Evangelicals in general ... Anglican high church ... all agree on the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment .. so stop escaping to others and say " why you judging me ... judge other christians who say of annilihation" come and let us discuss the matter on biblical bases not on other people opinions .... the Christendom is on my side buddy ... not on yours :)

begin with replying to the biblical quotes i mentioned

thanks .. jesus loves you :)

[Cal_Minian]

you get me some personal Opinions of some Evangliacal pastors and want it to cancel an 2000 years Doctrine ... ?!! talk as you want about the anglican church :) .... liberal anglicans can say what they want ... because ... in the past they allowed GAY MARRIAGE ... so if they believed in annihilation or not .... they are just bunch of heretics :) i talk about traditional - historical - biblical - chirstians ... not those who gone astray ...chrisitians around the world agree on eternal punishment because it is biblical .... so you cant say that "CHRISTANDOM" agrees about sympolic hell and annihilation...or ... if you say so .. i will say too that Jehovah witnesses will allow blood transfusion ...

see ...

http://www.jwreform.org/
http://www.ajwrb.org/ ( new light on blood)


if those people who are JW and agree on blood transfusion represents "the whole Jehovah Witnesses body" ... then talk about some people who gone astray and wanted to replace the biblical eternal torment with annihilation ...catholic , orthodox , Evangelicals in general ... Anglican high church ... all agree on the biblical doctrine of eternal punishment .. so stop escaping to others and say " why you judging me ... judge other christians who say of annilihation" come and let us discuss the matter on biblical bases not on other people opinions .... the Christendom is on my side buddy ... not on yours :)

begin with replying to the biblical quotes i mentioned

thanks .. jesus loves you :)

My point has been and continues to be, and is un-refuted. JWs believe in the biblical hell as a literal place where the dead are, just as bible writers teach. Many in Christendom, Catholics and Protestants alike now teach that hell is symbolic.

Therefore they are the ones who do not believe in hell, now JWs.

I suggest you modify your argument accordingly.

-Cal

[the copt]

My point has been and continues to be, and is un-refuted. JWs believe in the biblical hell as a literal place where the dead are, just as bible writers teach. Many in Christendom, Catholics and Protestants alike now teach that hell is symbolic.

Therefore they are the ones who do not believe in hell, now JWs.

I suggest you modify your argument accordingly.

-Cal

ofcourse you are in a problem ... the historical Christianity always believed in hell as a real place .... and you are now talking about a BUNCH of liberals and wanted to force thier opinions on the historical christianity and all the christians around the world ... that is not fare ... you say that your point is not refuted and i say the opposite ... so let us discuss it on biblical bases and stop escaping to other churches ... i will always defend the historical christianity .. so leave this argument and let us discuss your watchtower teaching ... if you have the full truth you will not be afraid to tell it to me .. right ??

by the way i tell you again ... even those "liberals" dont say that hell is symbolic they just say "hell is real place ... but we just dont know how it will be ... physical torment or psychological torment because of seperating from god" ... the one who cease to exist is not seperated from god because he is not there at all ! seperating from god and torment by it ... it demands a full conscious .. not unconscious ... ok ?

that is the last time i tell you ... try to refute my biblical Quotes now and go with me in a real biblical conversation

[the copt]

from the catholic catechism about hell :

"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


that is about hell from the catechism of the catholic church .... now don't talk about "Catholics who think hell is not real place" and start real conversation

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

[Cal_Minian]

from the catholic catechism about hell :

"1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.


that is about hell from the catechism of the catholic church .... now don't talk about "Catholics who think hell is not real place" and start real conversation

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2O.HTM

Here is an article from the LA times. I have a hardopy of the original.

It notes that there was a change in the catechism from earlier. Here is the the part about Catholics:

In 1999, Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should be seen not as a fiery underworld but as “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”

As much as that seemed like a departure from church beliefs, the pope’s words weren’t all that new. The Roman Catholic Church in the 1960s moved away from the view of hell as a gothic torture chamber as part of the Second Vatican Council’s modernization of church teachings.

Individual priests kept hell’s fires burning for years, aided by a Catholic catechism of beliefs published in 1891 whose tone one priest calls “positively medieval.” A new catechism, published in 1994, uses gentler language and emphasizes that hell’s chief punishment is the separation from God.

“When you take [hell] away as a threat, everything changes,” said the University of Chicago’s Marty. “Who goes to confession anymore? Time was, a [Catholic] church had 16 booths and people snaked around the block. Today, a church might have one left.”

[the copt]

Here is an article from the LA times. I have a hardopy of the original.

It notes that there was a change in the catechism from earlier. Here is the the part about Catholics:

In 1999, Pope John Paul II made headlines by saying that hell should be seen not as a fiery underworld but as “the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy.”

As much as that seemed like a departure from church beliefs, the pope’s words weren’t all that new. The Roman Catholic Church in the 1960s moved away from the view of hell as a gothic torture chamber as part of the Second Vatican Council’s modernization of church teachings.

Individual priests kept hell’s fires burning for years, aided by a Catholic catechism of beliefs published in 1891 whose tone one priest calls “positively medieval.” A new catechism, published in 1994, uses gentler language and emphasizes that hell’s chief punishment is the separation from God.

“When you take [hell] away as a threat, everything changes,” said the University of Chicago’s Marty. “Who goes to confession anymore? Time was, a [Catholic] church had 16 booths and people snaked around the block. Today, a church might have one left.”

NiCE !! .. where in your article the POPE said that the Hell is symbolic ??????? and where did it say that people Die and cease to exist ??? what i can see that there is another Interpretation of hell !! Hell exist but in another interpretation ... beside you see .... SEPARATION FROM GOD IS THE CHIEF punishment .... CHIEF means there is another SECONDARY punishments too .... Like what ?? like Eternal fire of the bible :) ....

what the bible say about hell sir ??

it say "Eternal fire" ... what do it mean ??? why Jesus didn't give use the TRUE watchtower Interpretation of the bible instead of letting every one for 2000 years think of Eternal Fire ?? If the bible say Eternal Fire ... so it is Eternal fire :) .... may be not the Chief Punishment ... because nothing is more than seperating from God ... but it exists as Jesus said :) !! ...

the result : the pope didn't deny the hell existence ... didn't deny the eternal punishment ...he didn't say that people cease to exist after death ... but he did say that the hell should not be viewed as firey world ... but SEPARATION FROM GOD as is ITS CHIEF PUNISHMENT ..

from the catholic Encyclopedia :

"The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.





NOW will we Move to see what the bible say ??

discuss the bible please :)

[Cal_Minian]

[the copt]
NiCE !! .. where in your article the POPE said that the Hell is symbolic ???????

[Cal]
When he says Hell is a state of existence it can only be understood as symbolic. Look it up in an English dictionary. If someone said that the state of poverty was Hell they would be speaking metaphorically. Look up both words.

-Cal

[the copt]

"the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy"

that what he said .... and this cannot be understood to be "just metaphoric Torment ... if i said ... " i am in a state of homesickness ... that means i am tormented by homesickness .. and that i am in a place away from my home .... that is what he mean ... being away from god is a torment ... state of torment .... real torment not metaphoric one... beside .. why you did you ignore my note about "Chief punishment " ... that means Not only "seperation from god is the only Punishment ... but it is the Chief one .. there is another torments too ... like "eternal fire" :)

why you did ignore my Catechism Quotes??

again ... ""1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."


you can notice here there is "punishments of hell " in plural that means that there is many kinds of punishments of hell ... seperation from god is the Chief punishment .... but not the only .... and so you can notice too ... that in the catechism it used verbs like "descend" wich can be only understood that hell is a real place .. :) you cannot Descend into a metaphoric place :) .... by the way ... catechism Quotes i get is from the Vatican site .. so you cannot say that it is not the "modern Catechism" :)

why you ignored my Catholic Encyclopedia Quotes ?

""The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy."


read it again and reply to it if you can :)


notice that eternal pains of hell is opposite to the Eternal joy of heavens .... if there is an eternal joy of heavens .... there must be ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of hell .. that is fare :)

and totally contradict the annihilation view :)

from catholic Answers site :

"The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.


Quotes of Early fathers :) ( read this )


Ignatius of Antioch ( 110 AD )


"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

Athenagoras


"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Ending with Athenagorase wich totally Refuted the "annihilation Doctrine" .....

now we are so much Sure that the Catholic church and the Historical Christianity Dont believe in annihilation of "metaphoric hell" .... and it is irrefutable position .. Hope you can Reply to the Whole Article .. and not take parts from it and reply to it :)

jesus loves you ... dont go to hell

the article of catholic answers site : http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

[Cal_Minian]

"the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy"

that what he said .... and this cannot be understood to be "just metaphoric Torment ... if i said ... " i am in a state of homesickness ... that means i am tormented by homesickness .. and that i am in a place away from my home .... that is what he mean ... being away from god is a torment ... state of torment .... real torment not metaphoric one... beside .. why you did you ignore my note about "Chief punishment " ... that means Not only "seperation from god is the only Punishment ... but it is the Chief one .. there is another torments too ... like "eternal fire" :)

why you did ignore my Catechism Quotes??

again ... ""1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."615 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."


you can notice here there is "punishments of hell " in plural that means that there is many kinds of punishments of hell ... seperation from god is the Chief punishment .... but not the only .... and so you can notice too ... that in the catechism it used verbs like "descend" wich can be only understood that hell is a real place .. :) you cannot Descend into a metaphoric place :) .... by the way ... catechism Quotes i get is from the Vatican site .. so you cannot say that it is not the "modern Catechism" :)

why you ignored my Catholic Encyclopedia Quotes ?

""The Holy Bible is quite explicit in teaching the eternity of the pains of hell. The torments of the damned shall last forever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). They are everlasting just as are the joys of heaven (Matthew 25:46). Of Judas Christ says: "it were better for him, if that man had not been born" (Matthew 26:24). But this would not have been true if Judas was ever to be released from hell and admitted to eternal happiness. Again, God says of the damned: "Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched" (Isaiah 66:24; Mark 9:43, 45, 47). The fire of hell is repeatedly called eternal and unquenchable. The wrath of God abideth on the damned (John 3:36); they are vessels of Divine wrath (Romans 9:22); they shall not possess the Kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:10; Galatians 5:21), etc. The objections adduced from Scripture against this doctrine are so meaningless that they are not worth while discussing in detail. The teaching of the fathers is not less clear and decisive (cf. Patavius, "De Angelis", III, viii). We merely call tomind the testimony of the martyrs who often declared that they were glad to suffer pain of brief duration in order to escape eternal torments; e.g. "Martyrium Polycarpi", c. ii (cf. Atzberger, "Geschichte", II, 612 sqq.). It is true that Origen fell into error on this point; but precisely for this error he was condemned by the Church (Canones adv. Origenem ex Justiniani libro adv. Origen., can. ix; Hardouin, III, 279 E; Denz., n. 211). In vain attempts were made to undermine the authority of these canons (cf. Dickamp, "Die origenistischen Streitigkeiten", Münster, 1899, 137). Besides even in Origen we find the orthodox teaching on the eternity of the pains of hell; for in his words the faithful Christian was again and again victorious over the doubting philosopher. Gregory of Nyssa seems to have favoured the errors of Origen; many, however, believe that his statements can be shown to be in harmony with Catholic doctrine. But the suspicions that have been cast on some passages of Gregory of Nazianzus and Jerome are decidedly without justification (cf. Pesch, "Theologische Zeitfragen", 2nd series, 190 sqq.). The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy."


read it again and reply to it if you can :)


notice that eternal pains of hell is opposite to the Eternal joy of heavens .... if there is an eternal joy of heavens .... there must be ETERNAL PUNISHMENT of hell .. that is fare :)

and totally contradict the annihilation view :)

from catholic Answers site :

"The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons—all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hell—the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "[I]t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell, as the following quotes show.


Quotes of Early fathers :) ( read this )


Ignatius of Antioch ( 110 AD )


"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).


Second Clement


"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).


Justin Martyr


"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

Athenagoras


"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Ending with Athenagorase wich totally Refuted the "annihilation Doctrine" .....

now we are so much Sure that the Catholic church and the Historical Christianity Dont believe in annihilation of "metaphoric hell" .... and it is irrefutable position .. Hope you can Reply to the Whole Article .. and not take parts from it and reply to it :)

jesus loves you ... dont go to hell

the article of catholic answers site : http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

Sorry, but I'll go with the LA Times article, thank you, my verbose friend :)

-Cal

[the copt]

Sorry, but I'll go with the LA Times article, thank you, my verbose friend :)

-Cal

so you just select what do u want to ... and ignore all the rest evidence .... is that what they teach you in the watchtower ?? so you do the same with the bible .. select what do u want ..and ignore all the rest verses and the whole christian history ..

i am happy that our conversation ended with that .. so every one will see how watchtower brainwashes its followers

jesus loves you ....

[RBerman]

The question of whether Hell is a place or a state is different than whether Hell is symbolic or literal. Few Christians believe that Hell is a place you can travel to in a spaceship, or by digging a hole into the earth. Most conceive of Hell as something outside our universe. In that case, the word "place" starts to lose its descriptive power.

The more pertinent question is whether Hell is real (it is), and how one gets there (as a judgment for sin). Cal is correct that many who self-identify as Christians have departed from orthodox teachings such as the concept of a God who is wrathful over sin. In that sense a JW may be closer to the truth than many in the mainline Protestant churches, or the Roman church.

As far as the original topic of this thread, I've only had one extended conversation with a JW about religion. One of my neighbors came to my house twice; the second time he brought one of his teachers with him. They were unable to answer my questions about the evidence in the New World Translation that Jesus is fully God, or about the creepy anonymous nature of Watchtower literature. They left after about an hour.