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Thread: Debate Proposal For Starlight: Infantcide

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    Professor Catholicity's Avatar
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    Debate Proposal For Starlight: Infantcide

    Dear Starlight: Since you have brought up and apparently believe in infanticide apparently through the age of three, and I obviously do not, I propose that you formally defend said belief. I will of course take the opposing side which is against infanticide. One twist. Instead of using religion or anti religion or propositions that involve whether or not God Exists or does not, we will use a secular debate which comes from biology and developmental psychology. You must use widely accepted resources from theories of development, anatomy and physiology. No wikipedia, no plagarism. If for example you use Erikson's theories of psychosocial stages you must credit him for the work, and give a link or book page.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    I'm not a fan of formal debates, and I don't feel this topic is at all important, so no. Your suggested debate criteria that would require me to provide technical information from a variety of fields that I am not an expert in and have little interest in, is likewise off-putting.

    I'm not a woman, so the question of to have an abortion will never be my choice. My country's politics are settled and pro-choice on the matter, so I have no quarrel with them. And I have zero political power or influence, so no ability to change laws anyway. The entire topic is a discussion I have only a small passing interest in as a hypothetical philosophical exercise, and I find the utter obsession that people on TWeb have with the topic to be bizarre. If you are looking to read more detailed arguments for my general sort of position, then I believe people like Peter Singer have set out their arguments on this topic more thoroughly and at greater length elsewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I'm not a fan of formal debates, and I don't feel this topic is at all important, so no. Your suggested debate criteria that would require me to provide technical information from a variety of fields that I am not an expert in and have little interest in, is likewise off-putting.

    I'm not a woman, so the question of to have an abortion will never be my choice. My country's politics are settled and pro-choice on the matter, so I have no quarrel with them. And I have zero political power or influence, so no ability to change laws anyway. The entire topic is a discussion I have only a small passing interest in as a hypothetical philosophical exercise, and I find the utter obsession that people on TWeb have with the topic to be bizarre. If you are looking to read more detailed arguments for my general sort of position, then I believe people like Peter Singer have set out their arguments on this topic more thoroughly and at greater length elsewhere.
    I am challenging it from a standpoint of if you think it should be legal to kill someone all components of it should at least be studied thoroughly. From this I can best gather you have not studied but rather decided something because it sounded good. Not that it followed any sound knowledge of human development, psychological biological or otherwise. Btw if you propose a hot topic you should be prepared to say why. Instead you shove it off to a philosopher. Allowing someone to draw your conclusion for you shows a lack of ability to reason well.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    I would not say I "propose a hot topic", rather that many of the residents of TWeb appear to be obsessed with this topic to an extent that they have managed to get me (someone who doesn't care about the topic) to give my opinion. I consider my view normal, insofar as the only two of my friends I have ever discussed the topic with also hold the same view (one with a PhD in psychology), and high-profile philosophers and bioethicists have expounded such views in journals. I consider the people with zealously-held pro-life views here on TWeb to be the ones holding abnormal views, and they would be a tiny minority in my county. My views are the result of my own philosophical reasoning about morality, not on minute details of biological development which I consider irrelevant to the topic, and not a result of adherence to the views of any particular other person.

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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I would not say I "propose a hot topic", rather that many of the residents of TWeb appear to be obsessed with this topic to an extent that they have managed to get me (someone who doesn't care about the topic) to give my opinion. I consider my view normal, insofar as the only two of my friends I have ever discussed the topic with also hold the same view (one with a PhD in psychology), and high-profile philosophers and bioethicists have expounded such views in journals. I consider the people with zealously-held pro-life views here on TWeb to be the ones holding abnormal views, and they would be a tiny minority in my county. My views are the result of my own philosophical reasoning about morality, not on minute details of biological development which I consider irrelevant to the topic, and not a result of adherence to the views of any particular other person.
    Your views are not normal by a long stretch. Not in the US, and I'm fairly certain not in New Zealand either.

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    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Your views are not normal by a long stretch.
    What proportion of pre-Christian cultures would you say tolerated infanticide? Anthropologists I've read have given answers along the lines of "the vast majority of them". But you seem to have strong opinions in general about the cultural and moral practices of non-Christian cultures, so perhaps you can supply a different answer?

    I find it hard to take seriously the implied claim that a practice that occurred in the vast majority of cultures throughout known history was "not normal".
    Last edited by Starlight; 06-16-2016 at 01:58 AM.

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    The biological and psychological development of humans are very relevant yet you called biology irrelevant. Lets start with that. Why is biology irrelevant when it ciomes to infanticide? What about biology is not related to your point of view? Its got a whole lot to do with mine I can list it in detail from fetal formation in utero through birth it contributes chunks of my opinion.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
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    tWebber Sea of red's Avatar
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    At this point Catholicity, you're not going to cover ground with him that hasn't already been covered. I think the opinion he has is extreme (to say the least) but it's one he has come to via the influence of other authorities, where he didn't fact-check their opinions for himself. I think he's going to have to come to a change of philosophy on his own - which I think is already happening. You need to give him some time to think the information that's been presented this week over. I know when I changed a few climate change skeptics minds they had to be talked to one on one, and then have time to process it all.

  9. Amen Carrikature amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    What proportion of pre-Christian cultures would you say tolerated infanticide? Anthropologists I've read have given answers along the lines of "the vast majority of them". But you seem to have strong opinions in general about the cultural and moral practices of non-Christian cultures, so perhaps you can supply a different answer?

    I find it hard to take seriously the implied claim that a practice that occurred in the vast majority of cultures throughout known history was "not normal".
    Pre-Christian cultures? What in the world are you talking about? Unless you're communing with the ancient dead when you say that you think it's normal because you have two friends who also believe that infanticide is okay, then it should be obvious that the context is what modern people in the US and NZ think is normal. Your views about post-birth abortion are NOT in line with the norm in these nations, nor in the rest of the Western world. On your bizarro definition of "normal", owning slaves is normal, castration is normal, pederasty is normal. Are these things normal in modern day New Zealand?

  11. Amen Chrawnus, Cerebrum123, Darth Executor amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Carrikature's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Catholicity View Post
    The biological and psychological development of humans are very relevant yet you called biology irrelevant. Lets start with that. Why is biology irrelevant when it ciomes to infanticide? What about biology is not related to your point of view? Its got a whole lot to do with mine I can list it in detail from fetal formation in utero through birth it contributes chunks of my opinion.
    They're not relevant to all people. Certainly some do base their opinions on biology and psychology, but it's safe to say most don't possess that sort of knowledge. The lack doesn't stop them from having an opinion.
    I'm not here anymore.

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