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Thread: Debate Proposal For Starlight: Infantcide

  1. #21
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Moderated By: sparko

    The Arena is for one on one debates, not free-for-alls. This debate is between Catholicity and Starlight. Others should just watch and not participate. Thanks!

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.


  2. #22
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I am unable to find any survey results regarding what New Zealanders believe about abortion. It is not a topic that gets much, or even any, political or social discussion here. However it is my personal belief that if you asked people a survey question about to what extent they agreed with a statement like:
    "I think abortion should continue to be legal in New Zealand. I haven't thought much about, and/or have no strong opinion on, the maximum age of the fetus allowable for abortion purposes."
    then I suspect you would get a majority of the country agreeing with that statement. i.e. most people don't have a view other than that they're fine with the current law.

    Similarly if you quizzed people on a premise like:
    "I think that the more intelligent animal species should be granted more rights and protections than the less intelligent animal species."
    again, I believe you would get majority agreement.

    Once the premise is granted that the intelligence level of the animal affects what rights it has and how it should be treated, and once the premise that human abortion of the fetus is generally fine is granted, then the general conclusions of my view are pretty hard to logically avoid. Thus, a couple of my friends, both of whom are unusually thoughtful and philosophical guys, who have actually sat down and thought hard about the matter both independently reached the conclusion that infanticide could be morally justifiable, and they happened to mention it to me independently because they know I like philosophy and that I am always interested in hearing an interesting argument, and I ended up being convinced by their logic. Various international philosophers such as Peter Singer etc seem to agree.

    This gives me every reason to believe that a large number of other people in my country have likely also reached the same conclusion, or would do so were they to think through the same logic.
    Oh, please. What a load of bull. You can use as much convoluted sophistry as you like, but the majority of New Zealanders do not find infanticide normal, and you know it. Or if you don't know it, then you're living in your own little bubble out there.

  3. #23
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Moderated By: sparko

    The Arena is for one on one debates, not free-for-alls. This debate is between Catholicity and Starlight. Others should just watch and not participate. Thanks!

    ***If you wish to take issue with this notice DO NOT do so in this thread.***
    Contact the forum moderator or an administrator in Private Message or email instead. If you feel you must publicly complain or whine, please take it to the Padded Room unless told otherwise.

    I thought this was just a proposal for a debate. Is this the debate itself?

  4. #24
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I thought this was just a proposal for a debate. Is this the debate itself?
    I assumed if starlight agreed it would be the debate thread. But even if not, the proposal discussion should be between starlight and catholicity and be about the debate, not actual debate posts by you and others which is the case.

  5. #25
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    I assumed if starlight agreed it would be the debate thread. But even if not, the proposal discussion should be between starlight and catholicity and be about the debate, not actual debate posts by you and others which is the case.
    Since I'm not agreeing to the debate, I would prefer the thread be moved to civics so that others could participate. Although it's Catholicity's thread, so ultimately her decision I guess.

  6. #26
    Professor Catholicity's Avatar
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    We could do that. however I have a thread open in civics that is more or less a "free for all" where I've asked some questions about a piglet then posted some chronological pictures regarding giving birth. We could attach this thread to that thread and continue and I'll be happy to continue either way. If I'm slow at responding be aware that I'm making an attempt to give well thought and marked responses.
    A happy family is but an earlier heaven.
    George Bernard Shaw

  7. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Your views are not normal by a long stretch. Not in the US, and I'm fairly certain not in New Zealand either.
    Peter Singer (prominent ethicist at Princeton University) is one significant scholarly voice who would agree with Starlight's views. So while certainly not mainstream, they are not exactly an outlier either.

  8. #28
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amazing Rando View Post
    Peter Singer (prominent ethicist at Princeton University) is one significant scholarly voice who would agree with Starlight's views. So while certainly not mainstream, they are not exactly an outlier either.
    Yep, I realize that, and Starlight has name dropped him a few times as his role model. Outside of a few utilitarians on the fringe-left though, it's still not a "normal" view in the modern West. Treating animals as more sacred than children, Singer is morally bankrupt, an example of the insanity of the naturalistic worldview taken to it's extremes.

  9. Amen mossrose amen'd this post.
  10. #29
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Treating animals as more sacred than children, Singer is morally bankrupt, an example of the insanity of the naturalistic worldview taken to it's extremes.
    Not from the animals perspective.

  11. #30
    Oops....... mossrose's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Not from the animals perspective.
    I had an elderly cat that went blind. My Mom was upset about this, saying, "the poor thing, how awful it must be for her!".

    I replied, "She doesn't recognize that she is 'blind'. She doesn't know it isn't a normal condition. She doesn't know she is a cat. For all she knows, this thing happens to everything."

    We give animals far too much credit when it comes to self-awareness.


    Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

  12. Amen Carrikature amen'd this post.

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