Who was the first Messiah?

[Sparko]

Perhaps one day you will realize the difference between diversion and answering things directly. Yours was a diversion which is why i brought it right back to the track it was supposed to be on.




OK! So what am I supposed to be afraid of? What am I supposed to be saved from? I like how you highlight certain parts and ignore the rest especially of Daniel 12. The everlasting contempt applies to the wicked people. the text oddly enough uses two words that mean shame here but different kinds of shame in the phrase you highlighted ואלה לחרפות לדראון עולם: "And those for shame, for eternal shameful abhorrance" It seems that the text wants us to know that these wicked people would wake up during the resurrection and be looked badly upon by others so as to encourage righteousness. I see nothing to be worried about here. in fact verse three tells us that this would only apply to the wicked.

Who are the wicked, Menachem? Could it include YOU? are you a sinner? If you are wicked what will happen to you? Will you suffer ETERNAL shame? How is that different from "hell"?

the bible says we are ALL wicked compared to God. None of us deserve salvation.

Isaiah 64:5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved? 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins

So it seems YOU and I are wicked and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags to God. So by what means do you get saved from the fate of Daniel 12's shameful ones?[/quote]

[quote]

on a side note wasnt it said in kohelet 12:7( Ecclesiastes 12:7) That the dust returns to the ground but the spirit given by G-d returns to G-d who gave it? So what precisely am I to be so worried about? Or, what precisely am I to be "saved" from? I see no real threat here. You also did not address the former believer in J*sus and his/her status. Does that person "lose his/her salvation" because they no longer believe in j*sus?

Ecclesiastes does say that the spirit returns to God. but Daniel says that you will be resurrected one day, either to everlasting glory or everlasting shame. This fits perfectly with the Christian doctrine of salvation and condemnation (hell) - which you claimed that the Torah did not support.

are you going to admit you were wrong now?

On to your questions:



To quote Rashi on your Daniel 12:2 reference "The dead will come to life"



To make us realize that we did wrong and to gain favor in his eyes. G-d being G-d punishes us in this life if we do bad. You will see it all over the Tanach. When Israel sinned we were sent to exile. When Sodom and Gemorrah sinned they were destroyed. There is a consequence to sin but your thinking is in the wrong place. If you can name one place where it says that we are punished for our sins after we die, in the Tanach, I would be more than happy to concede the argument.

Is your memory so short? Daniel 12 says that you will one day be resurrected and face eternal glory or eternal shame. Do you not think that eternal shame is punishment? Do you think it is a reward?

[Menachem]

Who are the wicked, Menachem?

Those who do not follow HaShem are the wicked.

Could it include YOU? are you a sinner?

to answer these in order:
1. It is doubtful since I follow HaShem and do not do anything atrocious.

2. Arent we all!

If you are wicked what will happen to you? Will you suffer ETERNAL shame? How is that different from "hell"?

Eternal shame comes from the resurrection not before. In the tanach there is no hell as you put it.

I do not know what happens to the wicked. I am not G-d nor have I died and returned to the dead to tell us what is beyond. My focus is not on that mine is on this life and what I do in it. which is what HaShem is looking for.

the bible says we are ALL wicked compared to God. None of us deserve salvation.

Isaiah 64:[/size][/font][/color]5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
But when we continued to sin against them,
you were angry.
How then can we be saved? 6 All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us
and made us waste away because of our sins

So it seems YOU and I are wicked and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags to God. So by what means do you get saved from the fate of Daniel 12's shameful ones?

Talk about taking something out of context. I sort of figured you would take a repentant prayer out of context to fit and make it look like we are all sinners. That is not what the verse is saying. in the next chapter we find out that it is talking about the sin of idolatry for the first exiles in Isaiah 65:13 it is talking about the righteous and the wicked. when it says "My servants will eat and you all will starve......" so apparently not all are as wicked as you would play them out to be.

Now a question: Was Job a wicked man?

Moreso read Ezekiel 33 it speaks of righteous men. If we are all wicked why does the Tanach spend so much time on the righteous?

Ecclesiastes does say that the spirit returns to God. but Daniel says that you will be resurrected one day, either to everlasting glory or everlasting shame. This fits perfectly with the Christian doctrine of salvation and condemnation (hell) - which you claimed that the Torah did not support.

are you going to admit you were wrong now?

Pardon me! Ecclesiastes 12:7 most certainly does say that.

וישב העפר על-הארץ כשהיה והרוח תשוב אל-האלהים אשר נתנה:

And the Dust will return to the ground as it was and the Spirit will return to G-d who gave it

In this you are flat out wrong!

The the resurrection mentioned in Daniel is vastly different than the christian concept of "salvation." where are you getting this out of the dead coming alive one to live eternally and the other to eternal shame. I am not following the concept you are trying to convey. please explain.

the point conveyed by Daniel is that the dead are coming back to life as in coming right up out of their graves and walking around much like one of those old zombie movies. In order for this to work with christian theology it has to talk about the afterlife to which an afterlife is never mentioned once.

Is your memory so short? Daniel 12 says that you will one day be resurrected and face eternal glory or eternal shame. Do you not think that eternal shame is punishment? Do you think it is a reward?

oddly enough this works against christian theology. the text says they will come back alive before any type of punishment. Is Shame punishment? yes, for the wicked who receive it.

Also Daniel 12:2 never says "eternal glory" it simply says Chayei Olam which means "live eternally" it says nothing of what you are conveying here either in terms of glory and shame.

[TomSki]

First off, you cited Rashi in response to another question. Rashi rejected his Messiah, therefore he was a misguided jew like yourself.

Dwelling safely among ones enemies and redemption of the soul are two different things and concepts. Heck they (safety and redemption) are two completely different words altogether. Again no christian concept of "saving"

So, David will dwell safely among his enemies forever? David died. Or maybe you do not understand the Scriptures?

thats funny I dont see "j*sus' " name anywhere in there. Hrmm....perhaps that is because that is not the one being spoken of In Job.

So, did Job see David in his own flesh? The verse is a well known Messianic prophecy and the only Messiah that will ever qualify is Jesus. Funny and curiously, you cannot get yourself to type Jesus' name. (2 Corinthians 2:15-16)

Ah, Back to the same old boring Isaiah 53 arguements. Give it up Isaiah 53 was and is not about the messiah it is about Israel. It was so much about Israel even the Aramaic targumist said it was. Just click on the link in my signature it goes to the Blog, I posted the entire Targum with the Aramaic for verification. So IOW no dice!

When did Israel die as a guilt offering? By Israel's death, he will justify many? Israel is God's Righteous Servant? Israel has done no violence? No deceit found in his mouth? You obviously have not read the Bible. Israel constantly failed God and turned from Him to wickedness, broken the Covenant. Here is your righteous Israel: Hosea 4

[John Goddard]

Ah, Back to the same old boring Isaiah 53 arguements. Give it up Isaiah 53 was and is not about the messiah it is about Israel. It was so much about Israel even the Aramaic targumist said it was. Just click on the link in my signature it goes to the Blog, I posted the entire Targum with the Aramaic for verification. So IOW no dice!

The narrator is Israel, they are God's sheep who go astray:

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

But the Suffering Servant is Messiah from Jesse, not all of Israel:

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots.

Isaiah 53:2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him.

For Israel was violent and deceitful:

Isaiah 59:3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue muttereth wickedness.

But Messiah is not:

Isaiah 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

[Menachem]

First off, you cited Rashi in response to another question. Rashi rejected his Messiah, therefore he was a misguided jew like yourself.

Personal attacks like that earn you a spot on the Ignore list. C-ya!

[John Goddard]

Eternal shame comes from the resurrection not before. In the tanach there is no hell as you put it.

I do not know what happens to the wicked. I am not G-d nor have I died and returned to the dead to tell us what is beyond. My focus is not on that mine is on this life and what I do in it. which is what HaShem is looking for.

Jonah in the fish is symbolic of purgatory/Gehenna, then being released from it if you repent. Or worse places than the fish.

Jonah 4:7-8 But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd, that it withered. And it came to pass, when the sun arose, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and requested for himself that he might die, and said: 'It is better for me to die than to live.'

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

[sylvius]

HA!


Dan 12:1 "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

i think the misunderstanding follows from the misunderstanding of the word "olam" -- here translated with "everlasting".

"olam" has nothing to do with time.

although you might say: "olam hazeh" = this world ( or: age) = the world of time and space.

"olam haba" = world to come = timeless world.

[historic salve]

Eternal shame comes from the resurrection not before. In the tanach there is no hell as you put it.

I do not know what happens to the wicked. I am not G-d nor have I died and returned to the dead to tell us what is beyond. My focus is not on that mine is on this life and what I do in it. which is what HaShem is looking for.

...

oddly enough this works against christian theology. the text says they will come back alive before any type of punishment. Is Shame punishment? yes, for the wicked who receive it.

There is a great deal here that is agreeable between Judaism and Christianity. Many Christians have lost their way on this issue; they describe hell in such a decontextualized, unJewish manner that they lose sight of the connection between their acts in this world and in the world to come. They lose sight and instead become focused on some kind of vague concept of the afterlife, not on the resurrection or how we must ACT in accordance with God to attain it.

You are right to say that eternal shame comes after the resurrection. The dead shall be raised in order that they will be judged according to their works. But you are wrong to say that there is no concept of hell in the Tanakh (as Sparko has pointed out, hell is eternal shame). There were many different Jewish views on the subject, but the Pharisees, the largest Jewish group, rightly affirmed the resurrection.

[TomSki]

Personal attacks like that earn you a spot on the Ignore list. C-ya!

Typical. Probably the easiest way to avoid displaying your ignorance of the Scriptures. That and calling you misguided is not an insult, but a fact.

[Sparko]

Those who do not follow HaShem are the wicked.



to answer these in order:
1. It is doubtful since I follow HaShem and do not do anything atrocious.

2. Arent we all!

Isaiah said "WE" so he included himself and Israel among the wicked.

Eternal shame comes from the resurrection not before. In the tanach there is no hell as you put it.

as in Christian theology. We are all resurrected to live again in bodies of flesh. At that time God will judge us and those who are judged to not belong to him are sent away to eternal shame (hell).

And you claim to follow HaShem, but if Jesus is the Messiah, and you reject him, then you don't belong to HaShem, do you? It is a very important point.

That is why you need to truly seek to know the truth about Jesus. Because your destiny IS determined by who Jesus truly is. If he was just a man, then you have nothing to worry about, but if he IS the King Messaiah promised by God then you have rejected him and therefore rejected God and are among the wicked.

I do not know what happens to the wicked. I am not G-d nor have I died and returned to the dead to tell us what is beyond. My focus is not on that mine is on this life and what I do in it. which is what HaShem is looking for.

Again, if HaSHem has sent Jesus as his Servant and you reject him, then you are not doing as HaSHem wants and are rejecting him. You need to make very sure of who Jesus is before outright rejecting him.

Talk about taking something out of context. I sort of figured you would take a repentant prayer out of context to fit and make it look like we are all sinners. That is not what the verse is saying. in the next chapter we find out that it is talking about the sin of idolatry for the first exiles in Isaiah 65:13 it is talking about the righteous and the wicked. when it says "My servants will eat and you all will starve......" so apparently not all are as wicked as you would play them out to be.

Again, Isaiah says "WE" - and includes himself and all of Israel. If someone does not repent and rejects HaSHem and his servant, then they are wicked. They will be judged and put to shame.

Now a question: Was Job a wicked man?

Job was righteous because he never rejected God despite all his suffering. But he was a sinner, and without God's forgiveness he would be condemned to shame like everyone deserves.

Pardon me! Ecclesiastes 12:7 most certainly does say that.

וישב העפר על-הארץ כשהיה והרוח תשוב אל-האלהים אשר נתנה:

And the Dust will return to the ground as it was and the Spirit will return to G-d who gave it

reread what I said. I said that the spirit returns to God. but once that spirit is there, what does God do with it? Eventually it is resurrected to a new body and judged.

The the resurrection mentioned in Daniel is vastly different than the christian concept of "salvation." where are you getting this out of the dead coming alive one to live eternally and the other to eternal shame. I am not following the concept you are trying to convey. please explain.

the point conveyed by Daniel is that the dead are coming back to life as in coming right up out of their graves and walking around much like one of those old zombie movies. In order for this to work with christian theology it has to talk about the afterlife to which an afterlife is never mentioned once.

oddly enough this works against christian theology. the text says they will come back alive before any type of punishment. Is Shame punishment? yes, for the wicked who receive it.

Also Daniel 12:2 never says "eternal glory" it simply says Chayei Olam which means "live eternally" it says nothing of what you are conveying here either in terms of glory and shame.

if you are dead and come back to life, that is by definition "after life" - The christians do not believe in some ghostly existence after death for eternity. we believe that we will be resurrected into physical bodies and live on the new earth that God will create. Those that are judged to be wicked will be sent away to eternal shame apart from God. This is "hell"

Do you think living forever with HaSHem would entail a glorious life or not? That is what I meant.

[Menachem]

Isaiah said "WE" so he included himself and Israel among the wicked.

The people repenting said "we." the prophet is not the one repenting of the sin of idolatry.

as in Christian theology. We are all resurrected to live again in bodies of flesh. At that time God will judge us and those who are judged to not belong to him are sent away to eternal shame (hell).

So when was this resurrection supposed to have taken place? If it is happening now why arent many of the people just propping up out fo their graves, as Daniel describes, and living again or being eternally shamed?

And you claim to follow HaShem, but if Jesus is the Messiah, and you reject him, then you don't belong to HaShem, do you? It is a very important point.

He wasnt so your point does not follow.

That is why you need to truly seek to know the truth about Jesus. Because your destiny IS determined by who Jesus truly is. If he was just a man, then you have nothing to worry about, but if he IS the King Messaiah promised by God then you have rejected him and therefore rejected God and are among the wicked.

can we say "emotional appeal." I see nothing of substance to even comment on. Firstly j*sus wasnt the king of anything, Second he did not do the things the moshiach was supposed to do. lastly, he did not have the line to king David needed to be the moshiach. I could go on and on!

Again, if HaSHem has sent Jesus as his Servant and you reject him, then you are not doing as HaSHem wants and are rejecting him. You need to make very sure of who Jesus is before outright rejecting him.

To which HaShem did not so the point you are making is pointless.

Again, Isaiah says "WE" - and includes himself and all of Israel. If someone does not repent and rejects HaSHem and his servant, then they are wicked. They will be judged and put to shame.

Again Isaiah is not the one repenting it is the people who committed idolatry. Your point falls flat in light of the next chapter.

Job was righteous because he never rejected God despite all his suffering. But he was a sinner, and without God's forgiveness he would be condemned to shame like everyone deserves.

And so according to Christainity Job is rotting in Hell because he was not a j*sus believer. That is kind of funny to me.

reread what I said. I said that the spirit returns to God. but once that spirit is there, what does God do with it? Eventually it is resurrected to a new body and judged.

I did reread and I did misread what you said. I thought you said it didnt say that. That still does not answer the point about what happens to us after we die. G-d tells us plainly here what happens. besides the text of Daniel only says "many" and not "all" will come out of their graves. And if it is anything like those old zombie movies I dont want to see it.

if you are dead and come back to life, that is by definition "after life" - The christians do not believe in some ghostly existence after death for eternity. we believe that we will be resurrected into physical bodies and live on the new earth that God will create. Those that are judged to be wicked will be sent away to eternal shame apart from God. This is "hell"

Coming back from the dead is not defined as after life. it is defined precisely as it is " living again." After life would mean just as it says "after life your spirit......" and so on. The resurrection will return many of the dead to a living status which is where the Hebrew word Chayei comes into play as it denotes your physical life. There is no mention of a "new earth" or "Hell" in this passage in Daniel. All it says is that many will come out of their graves and some will Live eternally and others will wake up to a status of shame that is all. You are eisegeising(sp?) when force-fitting your "hell" and "new earth' in the verse.

Do you think living forever with HaSHem would entail a glorious life or not? That is what I meant.

Does it matter? Living to serve HaShem is enough for me. So, why focus on the afterlife if G-d has more things for us to do now?

[TomSki]

Does it matter? Living to serve HaShem is enough for me. So, why focus on the afterlife if G-d has more things for us to do now?

You serve a god of your own creation. Your god does not resemble the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You cannot even produce Scriptures to support your imagination. Creating your own god is idolatry.

"Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." 1 John 2:23

"Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him." Psalms 2:12

[sylvius]

"Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him." Psalms 2:12

"Kiss the Son"?

Hebrew:

נַשְּׁקוּ-בַר

"nashku-bar"

"nashak" indeed can mean: to kiss

but also: "to carry arms; arm oneself"

"bar" is Aramaic for son. Psalms 2 is written in Hebrew.

Hebrew "bar"= pure, clean

so with right this might be called " King James Perversion."

by the way, i see almost all Christian translations have something like "Kiss the Son" -- which is a very clear demonstration of Christian corruption.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...:12&version=31

[historic salve]

And so according to Christainity Job is rotting in Hell because he was not a j*sus believer. That is kind of funny to me.

This is a strawman, and an insulting one at that. Christianity doesn't say anything like that about Job.

I did reread and I did misread what you said. I thought you said it didnt say that. That still does not answer the point about what happens to us after we die. G-d tells us plainly here what happens. besides the text of Daniel only says "many" and not "all" will come out of their graves.

What are your beliefs? You don't really think that only many will rise, do you?

Coming back from the dead is not defined as after life. it is defined precisely as it is " living again." After life would mean just as it says "after life your spirit......" and so on.

NT Wright's way of saying it, life after life after death is a more precise way to say it.

The resurrection will return many of the dead to a living status which is where the Hebrew word Chayei comes into play as it denotes your physical life. There is no mention of a "new earth" or "Hell" in this passage in Daniel. All it says is that many will come out of their graves and some will Live eternally and others will wake up to a status of shame that is all. You are eisegeising(sp?) when force-fitting your "hell" and "new earth' in the verse.

There's no mention of a new earth in Daniel, but "hell" just means a place or state of eternal shame. Since Daniel says that a portion of the many will face eternal shame, it is entirely accurate to say that they will be in hell.

Does it matter? Living to serve HaShem is enough for me. So, why focus on the afterlife if G-d has more things for us to do now?

It's no surprise that you don't focus too much on the afterlife. While many Christians have taken an inordinate interest in "heaven," they're right about one thing. Since we Christians believe that Jesus was resurrected, and our whole faith is Christocentric, the resurrection becomes paramount. So, too, do our actions in the present because they will determine whether we are resurrected to glory or shame. This continuity between the present and the future is a constant theme throughout Paul.

How ironic that we Christians, the "heretics," have safeguarded Judaism's prize and jewel better than you yourselves have, by placing so much importance in the resurrection. How ironic that the Pharisees, in the Talmud, deemed the resurrection important enough to call all other Jewish sects that rejected it heretical. Luke tells us that the Pharisees thought it was important enough even to distract from Paul's trial (Acts 23:6-7).

[sylvius]

NT Wright's way of saying it, life after life after death is a more precise way to say it.

This NT Wright might better be called NT Wwrong, if you ask me.

"after life" is a non-biblical Pagan concept.

he never did read Paul I think.

"Death is swallowed up in victory."

1Corinthians 15:54


after Isaiah 25:8