Who was the first Messiah?

[sylvius]

Mary supplied half of the DNA, and the Holy Spirit created the other half. A clone of Mary would be a female duplicate of Mary. Jesus was not female.

That's a very interesting point you make, Sparko.

I learned

a woman = xx

a man = xy

an egg = x

a seed = x or y.

egg + seed = xx or xy.

Has Jesus a twin-sister?

daughter of God?

[John Goddard]

That is not cloning Mary any more than I am a clone of my mother. Please stop trying to force your ideas into what I say. It is dishonest. Mary supplied half of the DNA, and the Holy Spirit created the other half. A clone of Mary would be a female duplicate of Mary. Jesus was not female.

Well I'm trying to get at what you mean, you are being vague about it. God created Eve from Adam's rib, that sounds like cloning to me.

Anyway so do you think the spirit-provided DNA matched anyone or any racial group in particular? Like did it have Asian or Caucasian qualities?

Take it to the unorthodox theology area and start a thread on it there and see if anyone else will discuss it with you.

I will bring it up whenever appropriate, like when Jews say Jesus has no clear lineage to David through the father. No need to start a new thread on it.

This is a huge problem with Christian missionary work, few Jews believe the promise of David's Messiah can be passed by mother or through adoption. Never mind that the lineage of Mary is basically unknown except for the Levite connection and only wishful thinking that it is in Luke, and the lineages are also seemingly cursed by Jechonias. And David was always promised to have a son from his own bowels on a throne that would never fall. The odds are stacked against orthodox Christian teaching about Jesus.

So it's always good to find something better when what you have doesn't really work.

[sylvius]

Well I'm trying to get at what you mean, you are being vague about it. God created Eve from Adam's rib, that sounds like cloning to me.

Anyway so do you think the spirit-provided DNA matched anyone or any racial group in particular? Like did it have Asian or Caucasian qualities?



I will bring it up whenever appropriate, like when Jews say Jesus has no clear lineage to David through the father. No need to start a new thread on it.

This is a huge problem with Christian missionary work, few Jews believe the promise of David's Messiah can be passed by mother or through adoption. Never mind that the lineage of Mary is basically unknown except for the Levite connection and only wishful thinking that it is in Luke, and the lineages are also seemingly cursed by Jechonias. And David was always promised to have a son from his own bowels on a throne that would never fall. The odds are stacked against orthodox Christian teaching about Jesus.

So it's always good to find something better when what you have doesn't really work.

Maybe Mary is the daughter of God.

Catholic tradition knows also a miraculous birth of Mary.

Daughter of a certain Anna (Channah) who was barren.

Maybe she was visited by the Holy Ghost too, who knows.

This same Channah might be mentioned in Luke 2:36,

There was also a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher.

The name Phanuel hints at the wrestling at the crossing of the Yabbok, Genesis 32:32, where Jacob became Israel.

The man with which he wrestled of course was no one else than John of Nepomuk ...

But this observation has serious consequences ...

When God visited Mary he visited his own daughter ....

so then Jesus was not just a bastard, but also born from incest.

his name then with right might be called Moav (Moab) - or Aramaic Barabbas.

Daughter of Aser (Asher) is, after Jewish tradition, the bringster of the good news.

see:
http://www.ou.org/about/judaism/serach.htm

[John Goddard]

Maybe Mary is the daughter of God.

Catholic tradition knows also a miraculous birth of Mary.

his name then with right might be called Moav (Moab) - or Aramaic Barabbas.

Immaculate conception is not the same as virgin birth, it just means born without original sin.

David was a Moabite through Ruth.

[sylvius]

Immaculate conception is not the same as virgin birth, it just means born without original sin.

immaculate conception is conception without male sperm ..
so without male DNA.

That's maybe why Sparko doesn't subscribe the catholic dogma ...

David was a Moabite through Ruth.

I thought Ruth converted to Judaism:

Ruth 1:16-17

[Mordochai]

I thought Ruth converted to Judaism:

She did, and calling David Hamelech a "Moabite" is not only inaccurate but also downright insulting because it's like calling him a מַמְזֵר and it's hard to think of anything more disgusting than a מַמְזֵר.

[John Goddard]

immaculate conception is conception without male sperm ..
so without male DNA.

That's maybe why Sparko doesn't subscribe the catholic dogma ...

No it doesn't mean that, it means you are born with no original sin. It's not virgin birth, that's a common misunderstanding.

IC: Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents.

I thought Ruth converted to Judaism:

Ruth 1:16-17

She was still a Moabite. Like an Asian Jew is still an Asian, etc.

[sylvius]

No it doesn't mean that, it means you are born with no original sin. It's not virgin birth, that's a common misunderstanding.

IC: Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents.

sorry this goes beyond me ,..
can you explain it more understandable?

[Sparko]

She did, and calling David Hamelech a "Moabite" is not only inaccurate but also downright insulting because it's like calling him a מַמְזֵר and it's hard to think of anything more disgusting than a מַמְזֵר.

yeah we know, Mordy, everything is offensive and disgusting to you. You walk around with the largest chip on your shoulder that I have ever seen.

I find your whole attitude offensive. Would you mind changing it for me?

Thanks.

[Sparko]

sorry this goes beyond me ,..
can you explain it more understandable?

Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life. Immaculate means "clean"

There is nothing in the bible about that though. It is just a tradition of theirs because they think that since Jesus was sinless, he had to be born of a sinless womb.

but then why did Mary not have to be born of a sinless womb?

[John Goddard]

sorry this goes beyond me ,..
can you explain it more understandable?

It means she was conceived through regular sex between her parents, but did not have the curse of original sin.

ORIGINAL SIN a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

[sylvius]

Catholics believe that Mary was born sinless and lived a sinless life. Immaculate means "clean"

There is nothing in the bible about that though. It is just a tradition of theirs because they think that since Jesus was sinless, he had to be born of a sinless womb.

but then why did Mary not have to be born of a sinless womb?

"a sinless womb"?

or has it to do with the legend of the phoenix?

when Eve had eaten from the forbidden fruit she first gave of it to all the animals before giving it to Adam,

which can be read in the word "gam", also, in Genesis 3:6,
and she gave also unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

all the animals did eat from it, except for the phoenix.

phoenix is Greek ; meaning also datepalm.

Hebrew for datepalm is "tamar"

So all of it might allude to the story of Judah and Tamar.

Tamar being the one with the sinless womb ?

Tamar gave birth to Peretz and Zerach, twins.

Rashi on Genesis 38:27,

behold, there were twins This is written with the full spelling (תאוֹמִים); in the other instance, [with Rebecca,] it is written defectively (תוֹמִם), because one [child, Esau,] was wicked, but these [twins] were both righteous. [From Gen. Rabbah 85:13]

Peretz becoming the father of the Messianic generation.

[sylvius]

It means she was conceived through regular sex between her parents, but did not have the curse of original sin.

ORIGINAL SIN a consequence of this first sin, the hereditary stain with which we are born on account of our origin or descent from Adam.

ain't death the stain of sin?

[John Goddard]

ain't death the stain of sin?

Yes. I don't believe in immaculate conception of Mary.

[sylvius]

Yes. I don't believe in immaculate conception of Mary.

which proves once more that these stories are not meant to be historical.

they serve to illustrate another truth:

"Death is swallowed up in victory. "
(Isaiah 25:8)