Who was the first Messiah?

[TomSki]

This is no point discussing religion with you, since you believe that our bibles are the same. It is easier for you to believe that all Jews for the past two thousand years are blind and unable to read their own bibles, than it is to admit that the Christian bible (what you call the OT) differs from the Jewish bible.

I simply believe all of the Hebrew Bible.

[Tanakh Keeper]

I simply believe all of the Hebrew Bible.

If that's true, then why did you quote at me a verse from John?

[John Goddard]

jesus is an idol. You've accepted it as a god from your reliance on the error-filled christian book. Now, you are feeling trapped by your erroneous conclusions, unable to admit that you are wrong and fearful of a tormented afterlife in a hell that doesn't exist.

Jesus compared himself to the brass serpent Moses made, having the power of God to help people, but also being made into an idol. So Jesus knew what was going to happen with people worshiping him as God.

John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Given that, are you going to say God made a mistake by providing the brass serpent to heal people, just because Jews turned it into an idol? Are you going to say Jews invented the brass serpent and it never came from God?

Of course not.

I've shown there is nothing in the NT that deviates from the Tanach regarding a righteous Jew who does what God commands, resulting in being placed in a position of power and judgment over others. So you have no valid argument against these issues in the NT itself, only against Church interpretations of them.

[Mordochai]

If that's true, then why did you quote at me a verse from John?

You're wasting your time, TK. They will never listen because they are too busy listening - like אַחְאָב הַמֶּלֶךְ - to the רוּחַ שֶׁקֶר that God allows to deceive fools like they in order to hasten their destruction (M'lachim 22:20-22).

[Tanakh Keeper]

[F]You're wasting your time, TK. They will never listen because they are too busy listening - like [F]אַחְאָב הַמֶּלֶךְ[/FONT] - to the [F]רוּחַ שֶׁקֶר[/FONT] that God allows to deceive fools like they in order to hasten their destruction (M'lachim 22:20-22).[/FONT]

But Mordochai, don't you think that fear drives their irrationality? From what I read and see, the belief in a place of eternal torment prevents most of them from thinking clearly. Don't you think that the built-in threat of hell keeps most of them in-line and non-questioning? I can at least give an attempt to be a light unto them.

[Sparko]

But Mordochai, don't you think that fear drives their irrationality? From what I read and see, the belief in a place of eternal torment prevents most of them from thinking clearly. Don't you think that the built-in threat of hell keeps most of them in-line and non-questioning? I can at least give an attempt to be a light unto them.

We are not afraid of hell. we are saved. You are the ones that need to be afraid.

I can't lose my salvation. you have yet to gain yours.

[sylvius]

Jesus is your Messiah, but you've rejected Him out of your unbelief of the Scriptures.

whose bloodshed you needed to atone for your sins?

[sylvius]

We are not afraid of hell. we are saved.

but what if you yet happen to commit some crime (again)?

You are the ones that need to be afraid.

because of what?

I can't lose my salvation. you have yet to gain yours.

i thought it was a matter of grace. .

[Sparko]

but what if you yet happen to commit some crime (again)?

what crime do you think I have committed? what sin do you think God cannot forgive?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

because of what?

because they reject Jesus as Messiah.

i thought it was a matter of grace. .

John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[sylvius]

what crime do you think I have committed? what sin do you think God cannot forgive?

I can't understand why your crimes will be forgiven, while Mordochai, who didn't harm even one fly, has to burn in hell for all eternity.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

ok,

but what does it mean "to be in Christ Jesus" (if it means anything) and how do I know that you are in Christ Jesus?

you might as well be boasting.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

again: how you are so sure that you are one of "them'?

because they reject Jesus as Messiah.

but what about you?

there is no distinction;

all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.

John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

again the same:

from what can be known that you do believe and are not just an idol-worshipper?

(In any case not from your explanation of the first chapter of John).

[TomSki]

You're wasting your time, TK. They will never listen because they are too busy listening - like אַחְאָב הַמֶּלֶךְ - to the רוּחַ שֶׁקֶר that God allows to deceive fools like they in order to hasten their destruction (M'lachim 22:20-22).

On the contrary, I and my Jewish and Gentile Christian brothers and sisters are friends to your Messiah, Jesus, Israel's King (John 15:15) and we are the children of God (1John 3:2)...it is declared in the Scriptures, it is no boast. The offer of salvation is extended to all men (John 1:12).

However, to the unbelieving Jewish people,. God says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children." (Hosea 4).

[Sparko]

I can't understand why your crimes will be forgiven, while Mordochai, who didn't harm even one fly, has to burn in hell for all eternity.

First, sylvius, I thought YOU were a Christian? Why do you think you will be saved?

second. you keep referencing "my crimes" - do you care to elaborate on what crimes you think I have committed? As far as I know I am law abiding.

But I have sinned against God. Just like Mordochai has. Since we have both sinned against God, why don't we BOTH deserve to be sent away from God? Why should he accept either one of us?

I turn again to the words of Jesus:

John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

I am a "whoever", Sylvius. I Believe in Jesus. He is my Savior, He is MY LORD and MY GOD. He says I will have eternal life.

I believe him. Mordochai does not.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

I believe in Jesus. I believe in his name. Mordochai does not. He is stands condemned already, by Jesus' own words. He will have to answer for his sins. I will not.

ok,

but what does it mean "to be in Christ Jesus" (if it means anything) and how do I know that you are in Christ Jesus?

You are sounding less and less like a Christian and more like a pagan every day, Slyvius. Have you read Romans? Have you read John 3? It says that those who believe in Jesus will be saved. They are "in" Christ Jesus. We are in his hand.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

I am IN his hands. I place my trust in him and he holds my life in his hands.

again: how you are so sure that you are one of "them'?

answered above. Jesus is my Lord and God. I believe in Jesus and have asked him to forgive my sins through his sacrifice.

you might as well be boasting.

Romans 3:27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.






<b>

there is no distinction;

all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God.

</b>Quote the whole passage.

Romans 3:21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

[Menachem]

We are not afraid of hell. we are saved. You are the ones that need to be afraid.

Saved from what? Afraid of what? What do we have to be "saved" from. Where is it in the Tanach? What am I supposed to be afraid of? Where is it in the Tanach?

I can't lose my salvation. you have yet to gain yours.

Christian theology begs to differ. if one denies j*sus and refuses to believe in him they go to hell. A former believing christian would fall under this category would they not?

Gaining a so called "salvation" as you christians put it is never a concept in the Tanach. It speaks of salvation of G-d which would be to dwell safely without being afraid of ones enemies and being able to observe the Torah without fear but nothing like you guys force-fit in there.

[Sparko]

Saved from what? Afraid of what? What do we have to be "saved" from. Where is it in the Tanach? What am I supposed to be afraid of? Where is it in the Tanach?



Christian theology begs to differ. if one denies j*sus and refuses to believe in him they go to hell. A former believing christian would fall under this category would they not?

Gaining a so called "salvation" as you christians put it is never a concept in the Tanach. It speaks of salvation of G-d which would be to dwell safely without being afraid of ones enemies and being able to observe the Torah without fear but nothing like you guys force-fit in there.

Will everyone be resurrected in your theology? Or just the Jews who follow the Law?

Why does YHWH make laws for sacrificing animals for sins if there is no consequence to sin?

What happens to gentiles and other nonjews after death? What happens to you?

[Menachem]

Will everyone be resurrected in your theology? Or just the Jews who follow the Law?

irrelevent!

Why does YHWH make laws for sacrificing animals for sins if there is no consequence to sin?

irrelevent!

What happens to gentiles and other nonjews after death? What happens to you?

irrelevent!

Now answer the questions I posed before we even get to these ones.